Lucky Gunner has new series on "MOuSE GuNs"

but it is not always as easy to "break contact" on the street.
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Nanuk - I see that you have military and law enforcement experience. I appreciate and respect that. You have a different but also informed view on this matter. I'm not challenging you, I really want to understand better. In what way is it harder to break contact in a civilian situation?

Thanks.
 
In what way is it harder to break contact in a civilian situation?
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It all depends on the context. If I decided I am taking your wallet and either alone or with friends begin an attack it is already at bad breath distance and you are generally alone.

The military context, you are never alone. The US military is not a good example, especially the SF community as they have the benefit of the latest, greatest technology and battlefield intelligence. If you had a crystal ball to tell you of an impending attack, you could break contact before it really ever happened.
 
I guess any revolver that's not a magnum revolver is completely worthless, eh?
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Nope, never said that. I like the 44 Special alot, the 45 Colt. I have no use for the 38 Special. If for whatever reason that is all you can handle, carry on.

I know you like your magnums with 180 grain bullets in both .357 and .44 variety, but it's not the standard to go by when it comes to self defense.
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Actually I only used the 180 in the 357 magnum for that one specific scenario 30 years ago, however, from a 6" revolver it works fine for about anything. My main carry load for the 357 was the 145 grn WW STHP, but @ $1 a round these days I will carry 125 grn JHP's when I carry a 357. I don't care who's standard it is or is not, I carry and use what I know works consistently.

The standard is a gun you brought with you that you shoot well with and gives you confidence you can shoot it under stress, effectively.
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Yep, carry the most powerful gun you can conceal and shoot well. I usually carry my Glock 31C loaded with these.
https://www.underwoodammo.com/colle...n-jacketed-hollow-point?variant=7865900990521

Short barrel .357's don't give me that and with the issues I have shooting the micro .380's, they don't either.
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On the street, the .380 works about as well as a 38 Special. I consider both to be the minimum acceptable.
 
The best arguments against the traditional semi-auto mousegun chamberings (.380, .32 and .25 auto , etc.) are that there are now 9mm guns out there of similar size and weight and practice ammo for these other chamberings are 2 to 3 times what 9mm costs. The difference between them, on a cost basis, is significant if one actually PRACTICES: It's not a talisman and only works if you have the skills to get it into action and make hits. That doesn't happen without expending ammo on a regular basis, and if you are going to burn a $100 to shoot a couple boxes of ammo every time you go to the range, you are less likely to go than if it only costs you $50.
 
going to burn a $100 to shoot a couple boxes of ammo every time you go to the range, you are less likely to go than if it only costs you $50.
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Just burning ammo is not a guarantee to getting the proper skills
Knowledgeable practice is the key.

The skills to shoot a small .380 are no different than the skills to shoot a 10mm. One should be masterful enough that the practice does not have to be gun/ammo specific, but skilled enough that no matter what the platform, the skills are transferable.
 
The skills to shoot a small .380 are no different than the skills to shoot a 10mm. One should be masterful enough that the practice does not have to be gun/ammo specific, but skilled enough that no matter what the platform, the skills are transferable.
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While the fundamentals are the same, it is pretty much accepted that one should practice with the gun they carry. The cost difference is significant.
 
and practice ammo for these other chamberings are 2 to 3 times what 9mm costs.
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Never have bought .25 or .32 but .380 range ammo easy to find at $.18-.20 or so per round, 9mm about $.14-$.16 or so..
 
jimbob86 said:
The best arguments against the traditional semi-auto mousegun chamberings (.380, .32 and .25 auto , etc.) are that there are now 9mm guns out there of similar size and weight and practice ammo for these other chamberings are 2 to 3 times what 9mm costs. The difference between them, on a cost basis, is significant if one actually PRACTICES: It's not a talisman and only works if you have the skills to get it into action and make hits. That doesn't happen without expending ammo on a regular basis, and if you are going to burn a $100 to shoot a couple boxes of ammo every time you go to the range, you are less likely to go than if it only costs you $50.
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There are no 9mm's the size of a .25 or even a modern pocket .32 for that matter. If you can effectively carry and shoot the 9mm, great, but if not and you need that smaller pistol, the mouseguns are not totally incapable.

While I wouldn't willingly go below .32, I know the right .22 or .25 shot in the right place will do the job.
 
Nanuk said:
Nope, never said that. I like the 44 Special alot, the 45 Colt. I have no use for the 38 Special. If for whatever reason that is all you can handle, carry on.

Yep, carry the most powerful gun you can conceal and shoot well. I usually carry my Glock 31C loaded with these.
https://www.underwoodammo.com/colle...n-jacketed-hollow-point?variant=7865900990521



On the street, the .380 works about as well as a 38 Special. I consider both to be the minimum acceptable.
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Well, I think we finally found common ground on something.
 
Don't be silly, Nanuk. It is actually quite easy to break contact in a civilian situation- just like in the Army. One need only hold one's pistol upside down and over one's shoulder while running and shooting!
 
I just stumbled upon these videos as well.

Chris does a great job of breaking down a topic and presenting the pros/cons therein.

His hammer-fired pistol series was great as well, I look forward to his "pocket pistol/ mouse gun" series.

I do like the idea of "we're poking holes in people with handguns" the main goal is to get out alive, if the attacker runs off that's a success. Interesting way to view the bottom line...
 
The skills to master a small pocket are quite a bit different than a 10mm. The small size is harder to draw, the short barrel and recoil from a pocket gun is a huge difference. Yes, the same kind of drills. Fast drawing, point and shoot skills, double taps, etc. Good Pocket gun skills are IMO should be for the advanced shooter.
Of course just burning ammo is not a guarantee, but at the same time, you have to shoot often and be diligent at training. I have been shooting these gun on a regular basis for over 10 years. They require a commitment to shoot well. They require a unique skill set.
 
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For the group, I offer:

http://www.activeresponsetraining.net/small-pistols-have-some-inherent-problems

https://www.usconcealedcarry.com/is-a-pocket-gun-enough/

I have taken Claude Werner's snubby class. I shoot regularly a G42 or a J frame in IDPA or in a specific short range match by Eric Lamberton:

http://www.sensibleselfdefense.com/category-s/1836.htm

I shot pretty decently for accuracy. I am a fat sloth on time.

Thus, I have familiarity with the issue.

My bottom line is that I carry the smaller guns when dress or circumstance mandate. The majority of time, it is a Glock 26 or 19.

I have repeatedly said that if I can, I prepare for the anomaly of an intensive incident and not the cliche of scaring away a single opponent.
 
My issue w/ the vid - is Caliber.

- Mil/LEO - Shoot their way Into Trouble.
- Civilians - Shoot their way Out of Trouble.

The targets are the same, as are the stopping requirements.

So:

- Different ammo carry/capacity requirements.
- Same Caliber requirements.


Therefor:

- My minimum CCW is a 6+1 9mm/147gr. (Sig P938)
- My EDC CCW is a 6+1 .45 ACP/230gr. (GLOCK G36)




Red
 
My new favortie "mouse gun"! Sig P230 SL.
While not the smallest, it is so thin that it is very easy to carry, and boy is this piece accurate! Very smooth trigger, very good sights, and did I say accurate.

Took it with me to the range today and the photo is three magazines full, around 17 rounds at 7 yards. A two inch group with one operator flyer. Free hand and slow to medium rate of fire.

so far, this Sig has been flawless in function. Just cheap federal range ammo, but not one hiccup. I was using the 8 round Bersa magazines as well. These are almost the same size as the Sig 7 round, so I'm getting 9 rounds of super accurate .380 in a compact gun. What's not to like.

I shot some +P BuffaloBore .380 90 grain through it and was getting the same muzzle energy as low end 9mm. With shot placement and proper ammo, I feel well equipped with this gun.

Wow, I love this gun!
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I no longer own a 230SL but agree it is a beautiful, accurate, and easy to shoot pistol. It is very robust but do you have any concerns that +P Buffalo Bore producing low end 9mm ballistics might be a bit too energetic for the recoil spring in that blowback pistol?
 
HighValleyRanch said:
My new favortie "mouse gun"! Sig P230 SL.
While not the smallest, it is so thin that it is very easy to carry, and boy is this piece accurate! Very smooth trigger, very good sights, and did I say accurate.

Took it with me to the range today and the photo is three magazines full, around 17 rounds at 7 yards. A two inch group with one operator flyer. Free hand and slow to medium rate of fire.

so far, this Sig has been flawless in function. Just cheap federal range ammo, but not one hiccup. I was using the 8 round Bersa magazines as well. These are almost the same size as the Sig 7 round, so I'm getting 9 rounds of super accurate .380 in a compact gun. What's not to like.

I shot some +P BuffaloBore .380 90 grain through it and was getting the same muzzle energy as low end 9mm. With shot placement and proper ammo, I feel well equipped with this gun.

Wow, I love this gun!
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Nice looking gun. Do they still manufacturer them?
 
sig no longer imports them, but you should be able to find a nice used one for sale given some patience. I passed at least half a dozen opportunities before I found this one for 450.00! I jumped on it pronto.
This one is the SL version, all stainless and a little heavier at 20 oz.
But it's so thin, it carries nicely.
 
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