Luci's Bicentennial Minute on Illegal Immigration

Status
Not open for further replies.
Rich,

But let's face our own responsibility: they were taught by us that our immigration laws are little more than Blue Laws; unenforced and unnoticed by US authorities...and they'd be right.
Click to expand...
I don't necessarily disagree with the overall comment, but it should be noted that a given authority's lack of enforcement of certain laws should in no way condone or excuse breaking those laws. The mass importation of individuals that exhibit an eagerness to break laws that cause them some discomfort as long as they feel they will go unpunished (albeit unwillingly) is totally un-American and destroys a vital underpinning of what has made America so great. I'm reminded of what Benjamin Franklin said when asked what form of gov't the founders had estabilished, "A republic, if you can keep it". A growing segment of the population that refuses to abide by the rule of law is not conducive to a society that is based on self-government.

But to argue that they are all criminals or lazy; all here for a free ride....this is simplistic and xenophobic.
Click to expand...
I imagine I'm intelligent to know what youre really getting at here, but lets speak accurately; they are all criminals. By nature of their having crossed the border without inspection, overstaying their non-immigrant visa's, etc, etc. Each and every illegal immigrant can be charged with a criminal violation of federal law. What percentage of illegal aliens that break additional laws is debatable, but it is substantial. Even if the total numbers are still a minority, it is unarguable that the majority of illegal aliens do supplement their income with public monies. Whether that means they are lazy or just willing to take from another more fortunate than themselves is not something I really wish to say, or even know for sure. All I can say is that anecdotally, I've known many people that have qualified for public assistance at some point in their life. Of all of them, only one actually accepted it.

I simply wish that more of us could see that, in addition to having broken the law, there's also been an element of victimization of these people. Victimization by us for decades of a Wink and Nod Policy that almost encouraged them to come.
Click to expand...
Perhaps you could help us understand this by explaining it. I for one am not clear how an adult that freely chooses to enter another country and accept a wage that is vastly higher than he is capable of getting in his home country is being victimized. While I'm in no way condoning what employers do when they hire illegal aliens (knowingly or unknowingly), the fact of the matter is that the illegal alien is far better off here with a lower wage than he was in his home country. That hardly seems like victimization to me...
 
The United States cannot support the entire South American Continent. However, the illegal immigrants have been here for years; want to stay; and we've ignored the problem for years. So what I look for are some practical solutions.

There are two main problems that demand immediate attention:

1. We have millions of unducumented people here. Undocumented is the key word. What steps can we take to document them? and

2. How can we improve security so that we can stop the massive influx of people?

First, we have millions of undocumented people here. This is an unacceptable security problem. So we need to take steps to document them, and to make them want to be documented. Otherwise, the average undocumented Joe is going to remain undocumented. Silly fines, requiring someone to return to their home country, and other punitive measures won't accomplish much.

So in an effort to find a practical solution to the problem, you might as well give an undocumented worker the choice (their choice!) of being a guest worker or taking a fast-track to citizenship. The guest-worker program will allow the worker to stay for a set period of years before obtaing another worker permit, and will free the undocumented worker from fear of deportation. The fast-track to citizenship will allow the undocumented worker to become a citizen of the United States after completing a fast-track class that won't last longer than 12 months. During that time, the worker will attend classes to learn about the United States government, United States customs and traditions (teach them about the meaning of July 4th, and at least their kids will have a blast :) ), and a mandatory english classes. The government will set up thousands of classes in Nation's schools and churches. This way, the new citizen candidates will become assimilated into our society. And the plan will apply to other immigrants who are here and have an application for legal citizenship pending.

I know that this will be seen as amnesty. Maybe it is. But we're never going to be able to deport a significant portion of the millions of undocumented people here. Not at this point, we've waited too long to decide to act. So now we might as well have an incentive to have undocumented people come to our Government, provide thier identifying information, and be embraced as new citizens of our Country. I don't know of any other practical solution that will actually work.

The second problem that we have to address is border security. We need to immediately secure the border. This will probably require troops working with the Border Control and the INS. We can't continue to allow thousands of people per day to enter the Country, and we can't continue to have amnesty program after amnesty program because we refuse to secure the border.

Now I'm off to solve the energy crisis......:p
 
I imagine I'm intelligent to know what youre really getting at here, but lets speak accurately; they are all criminals.
Click to expand...
Nobody is denying that here. OTOH, nobody can deny that we are ALL criminals, guilty of one infraction or another. So let's all take the white robes and hoods off and deal with this honestly.

Rich: I simply wish that more of us could see that, in addition to having broken the law, there's also been an element of victimization of these people. Victimization by us for decades of a Wink and Nod Policy that almost encouraged them to come.

Ahenry: Perhaps you could help us understand this by explaining it.
Click to expand...
Ahenry-
I would hope that the explanation is evident in the context of my post where I stated that I'm in favor of a wall and deportation. The above comment simply seeks to distance me from those who see the entire issue as a one-sided invasion; those who wish to demonize 12,000,000 human beings as a single class. Those who have professed no real concern with Easter European illegals and single out for action those from "South of the Border".

But to offer an example of what I'm saying:
In some jurisdictions of the Mountain States, the local cops simply look the other way on CCW violations and have for years. Let's suppose you lived in one of those and had broken the law on CCW for years with a wink and a nod from the local Gendarmes. Suddenly, policy changes and you get busted. Most of us would say, "You took your chances, you pay your prices." But, unanimously, I think we'd agree it was a raw deal.

That's all I'm illustrating here. I'm not referencing violent criminals from over the border; I'm referencing that percentage which works honestly. Others here would have you believe there is no such thing or that the percentage of honest, hard working illegals is negligible. How is it, then, that that they complain in the next breath that Illegals are stealing American jobs? They're either doing jobs or being "lazy criminals"....they can't be both.


The immigration laws now need to be enforced, I agree. I simply don't see it with the overwhelming joy of some here. Maybe I don't feel as though illegals have somehow robbed me of my chance for The Dream, while others do; I don't know.

But I will point out one thing, in light of the fact that not a single Holy Roller in this thread has admitted to checking for green cards with lawn maintenance guys, housekeepers and the like:
- If your family earns $100,000 per year and has paid just one illegal for any job at all: On a comparative basis, you have received the benefit equivalent of Wal-Mart employing 2,590,000 of them!

So let's stop over-simplifying by blaming the "Political-Industrial Complex" and the Scum that took our jobs. These people are woven into the very fabric of American life and family, because we hired them. I doubt a single one of us can say we've never given a dollar to a suspected illegal. Enforce and deport, yes. But there is no need for the venom or the demonization. As members of a class (firearms owners) that includes it's own vast numbers of criminals (whom we shun) we, of all groups, should be most able to discern broad-brush fear, hatred and bigotry when we see it.

Rich
 
Rich,

If your family earns $100,000 per year and has paid just one illegal for any job at all: On a comparative basis, you have received the benefit equivalent of Wal-Mart employing 2,590,000 of them!
Click to expand...

Not arguing with you at all but could you please provide an explanation/source for the above ?

Thank you

NukemJim

PS IMHO this is irrelevant but honesty compels me to reply to
I doubt a single one of us can say we've never given a dollar to a suspected illegal.
Click to expand...
To he best of my knowledge I have not ever hired an illegal alien. I may have if they were employed as a cab driver, storeclerk, cashier etc... i.e. someone employed by someone else or running a franchise with goverment provided ID ( and yes I have stepped out of a cab that did not have cabby permit, not an immigration issue but rather an insurance one ). All work at condo that I do not do is by calling a licensed, bonded company listed in phone book, again not immigration issues but security/insurance issues. NukemJim
 
Lawdog, I'll tapdance around any subject I please.
Click to expand...

Oh, dear, we seem to have a breakdown in communications.

Let us see if I can make myself a little more clear:

You have been on TFL long enough to know that nobody -- no one -- gets a pass on lies. You have been here long enough to know that if you make a statement of fact, you had best be prepared to back it up with data and links.

So.

Here is your statement of fact:
Increasingly the behavior and demands show that the [highlight]majority[/highlight] of illegal invaders(they are not immigrants) ARE lazy criminals intent on a free ride [highlight]and worse.[/highlight]
Click to expand...

You then followed it up by saying:
My [highlight]research[/highlight] goes back a decade on this issue.
Click to expand...

Now.

I want to see figures and data that show that 50% +1 of the illegal aliens in the United States are here for "worse than a free ride" so that your statement above can be debated.

And I shouldn't have to remind you that 'data' is not the plural of 'anecdotes'.

Considering your comment as to "tapdancing if you want to", please, allow me to respond:

1) Prove your assertation with data and figures we can check. Preferably links; or

2) Edit the unprovable statement out of your posts, and don't reference it again, until such time as you can prove it.

If you choose not to take either option '1' or option '2' listed above, I will personally ensure that you can "tap-dance" to your heart's content -- somewhere else.

I do hope this clears up any misunderstandings on your part.

LawDog
 
ya know what...fine.



Now, answer my question to you...

...if you yourself have not referred in the past to criminals as lazy SOB's in search of the "easy path" then maybe you have a point. If you have, then you just have hypocrisy and a need to explain why THESE criminals are so different in the minds of some few of you.
Click to expand...
 
..there isn't anymore to debate about this tiring subject...illegals are good for those who want dishonest, cheap labor and bad for Americans in general..

..one last time...in a given part of business...one dishonest guy gets the idea to hire illegal aliens instead of American citizens...he pays them less for their work..he pockets the extra money and maybe lowers his prices to push out other businesses..then the other businesses who may want to remain honest try to counter the lower price index by different means or copy the dishonest business owner by also hiring illegal aliens...eventually want you may end up with is a segment of business that is dishonest in it's practice and giving low prices to the people in the area but little chance of employment..a very bad outcome for that part of America...I always favor ideas that promote honest work, production and the benefits of the long-term consequences of the idea...not short-term profits and the harmful effects to society in the long run...the same principle should also be used in government...thats about it..
 
2nd Amendment-
On behalf of those of us insistent on securing the border and enforcing our immigration laws, while refusing to join in the various internet lynch parties, I'd like to express my personal thanks to you for stepping up.

We can all get caught in hyperbole at times but thanks for removing and editing some of the unfounded claims you've made and defended over the past two days. Perhaps now we can get on with rational discussion of how we go about securing the border and how we go about handling Illegals when they're caught or reported.

BTW, I don't know if anyone here has linked Vicente Fox' discussion of legalizing personal drug use with the Illegal Immigration issue. I recently stumbled on a great piece from a couple of expatriate Cubans claiming that this is Fox' gambit to get Bush to really push amnesty in the US. In short, Fox drops the legalization issue if Bush accomplishes amnesty. Of course, the piece was careful to point out, Fox can drop anything he wants and the Mex Legislature can later legalize without his input or veto.

Interesting take on the topic, I think.
Rich
 
...if you yourself have not referred in the past to criminals as lazy SOB's in search of the "easy path" then maybe you have a point. If you have, then you just have hypocrisy and a need to explain why THESE criminals are so different in the minds of some few of you.
Click to expand...

Hmm?

Lazy? Yes. Critters are critters.

However, I don't wander around dropping hints and suggesting obliquely about 'worse things'.

If a critter is littering, criminally trespassing or sponging social aid, then I tell folks he's littering, trespassing and sucking up free money.

What I don't do, is drop hints that 51% of the trespassers are really murderers. I don't offer thinly-veiled suggestions that 60% of litterbugs are rapists. And I don't pass off vague unsubstaniated rumors that the majority of welfare recipients are actually looking for a chance to beat down Grandma and burglarize her house as researched fact.

Got that part figured out?

You want to post about illegal aliens leaching off welfare? Have at it.

You want to post about illegal aliens committing a crime by simply entering the country illegally? Knock yourself out.

You want to point out the littering and enviromental damage? Okay.

What you do not do, is come onto TFL and hint around that the majority of illegal aliens are actually here to commit violent felonies and expect that hint to get a pass without having to back it up.

You got proof that 50% +1 of illegal aliens are here to "do worse" -- by which you meant "violent felonies" and don't bloody well sling me a line about being misunderstood on that part -- then you post the stats and data and we'll research and debate it.

I do hope I am completely clear on this one.

LawDog
 
aspen...It seems I usually disagree with you, however I completely agree with your description of the problem.

That said, I guess identifying the problem is the first step. Any ideas how to fix the problem as it exists today? The "deport them" "imprison them" etc sounds good, lets hear a logical plan to do just that. I have heard no workable plan to permanently rid ourselves of this problem.

Another question for those who think employers should be severely punished for employing the illegals. How is the employer to know who is illegal if he is provided documentation by the worker? I agree those who deliberately hire illegals should be punished, including those who employ illegal domestic help. Most illegals are working on fictitious paper.
 
I do not support a blanket amnesty either and would support building a wall.

We could also make it a felony to be an illegal alien and put them in prison for 12-24 months then deport them. Then we could foot the bill as taxpayers for detaining them. ....

We could just give them all blanket amnesty and keep the good with the bad. In 20 years we would have to another amnesty bill. There have been seven amnesties for illegal aliens since 1986, some were for certain groups.

I don't see any hope of anything working till we seal the border to the south. If we dont seal the border with a wall, technology, patrols ect, we are just farting in the wind. Once we control the border then we got em by the short and curlies, if they want to get in then they have to do it our way or the highway......
 
I changed them to direct focus on the links and this odd idea that apparently exists among some minds that these criminals are somehow more noble than any other. Better to deal with that than a pointless fixation on two words of mine...
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top