Luci's Bicentennial Minute on Illegal Immigration

[Rich Lucibella]

This really IS a complicated issue. But one thing is for certain: doing nothing only increases the problem.

Illegal immigration, over the Mexican border especially, has been treated for decades with benign neglect. Whether it's because of our need for Mexican oil, employer needs for cheap labor or a China conspiracy matters not at this point. We have 12 million illegals in this nation, many of whom are hard working. But let's face our own responsibility: they were taught by us that our immigration laws are little more than Blue Laws; unenforced and unnoticed by US authorities...and they'd be right. Many others honestly feel that 10 or 15 years of acceptance of less than Minimum Wage has earned them some special consideration. And so it should, in a perfect world.

Unfortunately, we don't live in a perfect world. America has awakened to the problem and someone needs to pay for the dislocation that two decades of "benign neglect" has created. That someone is the illegal immigrant. Hold forth all we want about how "they broke the law" and "they're a drain on our health care system" and you'd be justified. Argue that the problem is an open door to criminals and terrorists and you'd be justified. But to argue that they are all criminals or lazy; all here for a free ride....this is simplistic and xenophobic.

Now, lest any might be uncasing your violins over my bleeding heart, let me make myself clear: I'm in favor of a wall; I'm in favor of deportation; and I'm totally against amnesty....there are simply too many foreigners legally waiting on the process to allow 12 million to slide into the front of the line.

I simply wish that more of us could see that, in addition to having broken the law, there's also been an element of victimization of these people. Victimization by us for decades of a Wink and Nod Policy that almost encouraged them to come.

I'm reminded very much of the failures of the Welfare State, with which we have effectively enslaved 3 generations of the America's poor. Certainly, they have choices and personal responsibility for their plight; but .gov has surely pointed them in the direction of dependency. Whether it be illegals or the welfare poor, it seems that the only solution (if we wish to handle the problem quickly) is to basically flush a couple generations of them and start fresh. For that, we each bear some responsibility...and just a bit of understanding or even assistance. (BTW, for those with the most shrill voices, when was the last time you asked for a green card from the lawn maintenance person, the pool guy, your office janitor, the roofer, the house painter, the housekeeper, the elderly family member's companion or the baby sitter? So before you point your Holier than Thou Fingers, remember....we've ALL contributed to the problem, one way or the other.)

Not all on Welfare are lazy; not all illegals are hardened criminals; very few of us are blameless.
Rich

 

[Redworm]

rich: what's your opinion on holding the employers of illegals responsible with fines and possible jail time? should a small business owner be punished for giving an illegal incentive to enter the US or should he be allowed to hire who he chooses and let the employee deal with the papers and taxes on their own?

 

[Rich Lucibella]

what's your opinion on holding the employers of illegals responsible with fines and possible jail time?

Of course they should be held responsible with fines and, of course, they most certainly are. Again, however, .gov (and the US citizen) has long since held a Don't Ask, Don't Tell policy.

But I think many more of us use under-the-table labor than are willing to fess up. We want to point the finger at WalMart, when we've never asked our own business and occasional household help for Green Cards, despite a foreign accent. I'd really like to see some estimates of how many of those illegals are employed in single employee domestic positions.

What many fail to recognize is that, for businesses, many illegals DO provide a Social Security number and taxes ARE withheld. They simply never collect their refunds because the SSN's are false. I know this for a fact from several friends here in Florida that use seasonal labor in their farm businesses....they wouldn't even consider hiring someone without papers.
Rich

 

[pipoman]

I agree w/RL for the most part. I drive the "minority" neighborhoods regularly off the beaten path. The residences are generally cared for, there are not gangster looking characters hanging around in the middle of the day, unemployment is apparently low. The Hispanic population are usually honorable in fulfillment of their financial obligations. I don't have a problem with most Mexican immigrants.

I don't support amnesty for illegal aliens. Short term, I think they should be asked to go back to Mexico voluntarily given a window of say 180 days to leave. In return for them going back the US changes the policy on Mexican immigration to allow for more entry in a speedier (12-18 months) fashion. All those leaving voluntarily will be put immediately under the most recent applications received from Mexicans. After the 180 days those illegals who are discovered should be identified and be made ineligible for citizenship and not receive social benefits including citizenship through birth. This would serve as a wakeup call to both Mexico and US citizens who want them to leave.

I don't think 12-18 months wait is too much to ask for legal access to the greatest economy in the World. I am waiting 5 years for a Randall knife. Many here have waited that long for custom guns.

The immigration issue will not be solved by radical actions in either direction. I have been staying out of the immigration threads because of the loud voices of the summarily execute them, deport them, imprison them bunch.Hopefully this thread will be more constructive.

I don't think Mexico will ever move beyond the royalty and serf problem until/unless Mexico allows for private property ownership and free enterprise without government corruption.

 

[gc70]

Rich, that's a great start on a guest editorial for some publication.

 

[Wildalaska]

Bravo Rich

WildnowswmboisdoingthecitizenshipthingwhatapainAlaska

 

[Scott Conklin]

But to argue that they are all criminals or lazy; all here for a free ride....this is simplistic and xenophobic.

That's your opinion. You're welcome to it but don't present it as fact. Increasingly the behavoir and demands show that some percentage of this otherwise perhaps extraordinarily kind-hearted group of poor, not-repsonsible-for-their-own-acts criminals (they are not immigrants) ARE lazy criminals intent on a free ride and worse. They literally presume it is their due, and the recent pathetic effort at a "Day Without a Mexican" makes it painfully clear.

there's also been an element of victimization of these people. Victimization by us for decades of a Wink and Nod Policy that almost encouraged them to come.

Horse crap. A tiny number of employers have put these people to work illegally and the government has, by and large, turned a blind eye. Meanwhile Citizens and property owners and decent business people have bellowed about if for the past two decades. Just because it is just now showing up on the radar screen of the less-than-aware because their numbers have begun to overwhelm the system does not mean plenty of people haven't fought this before. It's just one more example of a greedy few capitalizing on the labor of criminals while the masses, as usual, don't even notice until it is shoved in their face.

Victimization? That's what they are doing to our nation. And even if it were possible to victimize the criminal, why are we supposed to care?

EDITED: Per Lawdog's demands...

 

[Scott Conklin]

What many fail to recognize is that, for businesses, many illegals DO provide a Social Security number and taxes ARE withheld. They simply never collect their refunds because the SSN's are false.

Easily checked thru the local PD or via a credit check.

 

[Wildalaska]

Increasingly the behavoir and demands show that the majority of illegal invaders(they are not immigrants) ARE lazy criminals intent on a free ride and worse.

Got any stats to back that up (other than visceral hatred)?

WildtheworldisachangingplaceAlaska

 

[Scott Conklin]

Funny how when people don't march in lock step with you their position always has to be based on racism or hatred or stupidity, Wildy. At least, that's how you always try to characterize it.

Perhaps you should have watched the numerous interviews of Invader "representatives" and man-in-the-street to get a feel for how many seem to think we owe them anything from free Citizenship to, literally, the western part of the nation since "they built it" and now that "they have the numbers" they will "take it anyway".

But yes, of course, those were just a few extremists and all those upside down US flags and US of Mexico/Aztlan/etc, etc signs carried around in the background didn't really mean anything...

 

[Leif]

Round and round we go ... so many sound bites, so little time.

The majority of immigration threads seem to wind up being a contest between those of an absolutist mindset and those of a more nuanced bent, and thus usually (as with most rhetorical contests of this sort) degenerate into the former screeching rallying cries to their brethren and the latter giving up in disgust.

I've said it in a few threads before, and I'll say it again so as to be 'on record', because I don't intend to spend much time on the immigration threads: much of the debate about the current issue of illegal immigration or undocumented workers tends to be far more influenced by xenophobic talking points then by rational discussion and legitimate debate between people who are willing to check their racist (yes, racist) tendencies at the door.

It never ceases to amaze me that people who make ridiculous comparisons between totalitarian governments and the Federal government that supposedly is out to suppress their freedoms (read: gun rights) will advocate such measures as turning the southern border into a reverse 'Iron Curtain.'

 

[Rich Lucibella]

2nd-
Wild asked for a source of your claims...I seem to have missed it in your answer.

Congratulations, though. You have just discovered the first time in the History of Man where all members of a completely heterogeneous group (from Mexico, Vietnam, Guatemala, Venezuela, Cuba, the Philippines, Czechoslovakia, Canada, etc) "ARE lazy criminals intent on a free ride and worse". Or did you mean just the illegals from Mexico? Or just the illegals from South of the US Border? Just the ones who speak Spanish? Just the brown ones?

The depth of your research overwhelms me and I bow to your scholarship. I take back everything I said in my opening post.
Rich

 

[Scott Conklin]

Increasingly the behavoir and demands show that the majority of illegal invaders

The ABOVE quote is what I actually said. When you can show how this translates to ALL MEMBERS, or you actually care to reply to the points made, lemme know.

 

[Rich Lucibella]

And so you did. So let me rephrase:

2nd-
Wild asked for a source of your claims...I seem to have missed it in your answer.

Congratulations, though. You have just discovered the first time in the History of Man where the majority of members of a completely heterogeneous group (from Mexico, Vietnam, Guatemala, Venezuela, Cuba, the Philippines, Czechoslovakia, Canada, etc) "ARE lazy criminals intent on a free ride and worse". Or did you mean just the illegals from Mexico? Or just the illegals from South of the US Border? Just the ones who speak Spanish? Just the brown ones?

The depth of your research overwhelms me and I bow to your scholarship. I take back everything I said in my opening post.
Rich

ps: the correct spelling is "behavior". I wouldn't mention that, but you messed it up twice.

 

[Scott Conklin]

2nd-
Wild asked for a source of your claims...I seem to have missed it in your answer.

Apparently you did...

 

[Scott Conklin]

Only slightly better effort.

ILLEGAL invaders from South of our border. That IS what almost all of this debate is centered on and you did not appear to in any way attempt to redefine those terms. Are you seeking to redefine them? If not then you can safely assume all my comments are based on such.

My research goes back a decade on this issue. I was watching it develop long before it was ever headline news. I was saying on forums 6 years ago that this issue and land grabs would be the key issues that defined where this country goes, not guns or abortion. While I missed energy(I thought the center would hold longer) two outta three ain't bad.

As for Wild's requests...I really couldn't care less. I try to keep him on ignore but this software or my current comp keeps bumping people off my list... Just life on the net...

 

[Rich Lucibella]

ILLEGAL invaders from South of our border.

Oh, I see. So the criminals are only those from Latin, Central and South America. What do we do with all the rest, from the Pacific Rim, India and Eastern Europe, for instance? Do they get a pass? Amnesty? Citizenship? Are "the majority" of them not "ILLEGAL invaders"? Are the majority of them not "lazy criminals intent on a free ride and worse"? How were you able to discriminate in your "research"?

Inquiring minds want to know.

That fact that you've been saying the same thing for six years demonstrates only that, well....you've been saying the same thing for six years. So give us the benefit of your "research [that] goes back a decade on this issue". Otherwise admit that this is simple opinion so that we may dismiss you, given the selected specificity of those in your sights and the pure venom of your stereotype descriptions.
Rich

 

[Scott Conklin]

So why the desperate labeling? Because it's the only "rebuttal" available? And why, again, put words in my mouth? I never said they were the only ones, now did I? Speaking of dismissal in debate, those're the tactics that get it so far as I always heard. BTW, that weak spelling-nazi shot was noted and logged.

Why this select group? Because this select group represents the largest number of illegal criminal invaders currently entering the US. And, as you and yours like to say, it's a big problem to deal with. If that's true, why would you insist we deal with every aspect of it at the same time? Since I in no way even vaguely implied I have any problem going after other illegals it seems like something of a Strawman. I just don't see why we should do it all at once, nor why other groups would be a problem after the largest one goes down. I also, however, don't see any need to specifically differentiate. If it's illegal it's illegal, but if work focuses on the border then naturally we'll get/stop more of those coming via that channel than elsewhere, won't we.

Meanwhile, which other group is currently trotting around signs and maps showing the Western US as part of their nation? Which other group is currently destroying property and land as they enter by the millions, while terrorisizing border residents who in many interviews have said they are afraid to leave their rural homes after dark(and even during the day) at least without arms and/or escorts? I'm hearing about it on a daily basis around Canada, aren't you?

So, what research are you purporting to be interested in? Probably everything worthwhile that can be has been posted here before. Is it the number of dollars exiting this country, back to family members at home? The damage in dollars done in uninsured motorists, over-crowding of rentals, medical costs of uninsured/underpaid workers, prison costs from the ever-growing number of violent(and non-violent) felons and lesser criminals? All been here before. If you want interviews, like those from FOX and NBC over the past few months, you'll just have to go dig 'em up or watch your own tube.

If I find one of those "US of Mexico flags", the "Aztlan" thing, etc, I'll be happy to post 'em up for you.

But hey, how about this, since you made the initial claims: Tell us what good is coming from these people? Not those legals who follow the process but the criminals. What have they done for us lately? And where are the actual figures that show how damaging their removal would be?

 

[Rich Lucibella]

And here I was so hoping for polite, rational debate. [sigh]

So why the desperate labeling? Because it's the only "rebuttal" available? And why, again, put words in my mouth?

Where did I label you? When I suggested that perhaps your "views" were more opinion than "research"? When you re-read your words and realized how they make you look? I certainly never labeled you...you may have, however. Where did I put words in your mouth [again]? Where I alluded to your scholarship on the issue? The fact that your posts are venom-laced?

I never said they were the only ones, now did I?

Well, umm, yes you did. Very clearly. I asked if your "research" was directed at all Illegals including, for instance, some of them Hot Russian Chicks, or just certain Illegals. Your response: "ILLEGAL invaders from South of our border."

Why would I put words in your mouth when I find your foot to be so perfectly suitable?

Meanwhile, which other group is currently trotting around signs and maps showing the Western US as part of their nation?

Oh, THAT research!. Well, gee, let's go after all the Mom's in America over the Million Mom March; Let's go after all the Cubans because of the Marielitos; Let's go after all the Blacks because of the New Black Panther Party; Let's go after all of the gun owners because of Tim McVeigh. Good Lord, this "research" of yours could be Nobel Prize material. The insight is overwhelming.

Is it the number of dollars exiting this country, back to family members at home?"

Yes, that interests me when balanced with the amounts employers and homeowners save and keep here by having a pool of cheap labor; when balanced with the moneys collected by .gov without ever being refunded.

The damage in dollars done in uninsured motorists, over-crowding of rentals, medical costs of uninsured/underpaid workers, prison costs from ever-growing number of violent(and non-violent) felons and lesser criminals?

Yes that interests me, too. Of course, I've already stated I'm in favor of a wall and deportation for ALL illegals. I simply don't have any felt need to vilify and stereotype them all on their way out the door. That's your gig. But, then, I don't have the "ten years of research" that you do. What would I know?

Tell us what good is coming from these people? Not those legals who follow the process but the criminals.

Isn't that the point. You wish to lump all in together, so that you can vilify as a group. If they're illegal aliens, they must be violent criminals, intent on dastardly deeds and mating with our daughters and such. I have no such need; not because it offends my sense of right and wrong, only because it's a fallacious hypothesis for "research"; that is what you've done for the past 10 years, isn't it..."research"? But, if this is the conclusion of your "research", why not round up all gays?...they all spread disease; why not seal off all ghettos?....American citizens create crimes; all of it is generated there, among the "lazy criminals intent on a free ride and worse", no?

Me? I'd prefer to sterilize all adults with double digit IQ's...and the population is apparently growing.
Rich

 

[Sarge]

Oh for crying out loud- if they are here illegally, they have violated US laws. That alone makes them criminals.

Lazy? Until last Monday, I would have said "No- the vast majority of them come for the work." Of course, taking the day off from work to protest the stiffening of immigration laws isn't exactly a monument to productivity, now is it? So the 'lazy bums' handle fits better now, than it did last week- and I'll not waste any breath defending their work ethic.

Free ride? Absolutely. Just like the US-born bums who drive drunk, refuse to acknowledge the suspension of their license, drive w/o insurance, crash into folks who do- all of which results the rest of us paying for the freeloaders. The difference is that the US bums have identity that can be verified, and their nefarious conduct can be tracked & compiled until we can lock them up. They can't slip back across the Rio into another identity, and then pop back across it when the heat is off- with yet another one.

Of course they might just have been on the Mexico, Guatemala or El Salvador "most wanted" list when they came across the first time, but it's no big deal. They land on the US side as Joe Rivera and before the water is dry on their Felony Flyers, a contingent here is cheering them on. Poor, victimized wetback.

I got no quarrel for immigrants from Mexico or anywhere else, who are willing to submit to the naturalization process. My people came over here from Denmark, starting about 130 years ago. They were glad to stand in line, fill out the papers and wait for their citizenship. While Denmark is a decent enough place, you wouldn't have caught one of them protesting the US and waving a Danish flag, demanding that we waive the rules so they could get around the system.

You see, they wanted to be Americans. They wanted to vote, and be able to defend this nation that they loved enough to risk everything, and cross nearly 4000 miles of ocean- just to be Americans. They were glad to learn the language, work harder than the next guy, and proudly wear the uniform of the US Armed Forces when it came time to defend her.

You'll have to forgive me if I don't hold much sympathy for these anonymous criminals who think because they can wade 15 yards of water, we ought to hand them the country on a silver platter. I have even less use for any employer who will put them to work. Maybe a good punishment for them would be to deny them the right to operate in the US; then they'd be free to move south, and hire all of them they wanted. Let's just kill two birds with one stone.