Low serial number 03 Springfield

G

Guinness2

Inactive
Any comments on shooting a low serial number 03 would be appreciated.
The firearm survived firing military load ammo 100 years ago, so why not now? Might it finally reach the breaking point the day I decide to fire it? I plan to use light loaded reloads and a clean bore. Not to mention a test fire with a sheet of plywood between my pretty face and the bolt :D
 
I personally shoot my low number 03 and almost all of it has been military surplus M2 ball. I think that if mine was going to blow it would have done so before a replacement bolt and barrel at the ends of WWI and WWII.

however this is always a risk of them going Kaboom and CMP wont allow low serial 1903s to compete in their matches. if you are willing to accept the consequences of shooting should it fail then go for it.

KraigWY will be along shortly to add his .02
 
Ahh, the loaded question.

So, up front, I shoot a bolt that is in the suspect heat treatment group.
Its been shooting for along time though we are not sure in what gun! (long story I won't bore anyone with, its possible it got mixed up with another gun that was shot for a long time).

One thing to keep in mind first and foremost. If someone says the pond is safe and you see major cracks in the ice, you need to rethink. In other words, if the gun has any issues, then don't. Advice does not cover up a previous problem that common sense says you should not have gone there with. That said.

I have extensively researched that issue. As noted above, at this point, they have not only survived close to 100 years of use, they have done it without failing.

The Marines did not turn their in, they continued to use them. No one has reported there were issues that stood out. That was in some of the most gruesome combat operations ever conducted.

Keeping in mind that there are always failures, some notable ones were as a result of greasing bullets under the bizarre thought process it made guns more accurate.

Read the following

http://m1903.com/03rcvrfail/

I think Hatcher ran tests and failed to blow any up and he went way beyond normal proof loads.

One piece of advice I did come across that I think has relevance is watch the light loads. It sounds counter intuitive and there is disagreement on the subject, but it is felt that too light a load with some powders can result in an erratic ignition that then causes a pressure spike in excess of even proof tests. So run your idea past the reload group here before you do it.

Good luck shoot long and prosper!
 
We will argue this till the Crack of Doom and not resolve it. IIRC Hatcher found there were some bad "vintages" of M1903 production-1906 and 1911 come to mind,not 1917-1918 as the popular explanation goes. I have not heard of an M1903 coming apart in recent years. As Kraigwy will point out,low number M1903s are NOT allowed in CMP sanctioned matches.
 
btw, what do you make of a 03 serial numbered 456XXX with a barrel stamp "05".
According, the rifle was made in 1910, but the barrel 1905??? Is this OK? Is the rifle considered"correct and original"?
 
"Correct and period original", but not "factory original." I have a 1918 vintage High Number with correct period barrel, but in a scant grip stock.
 
it's a rebarrel by someone attempting to find a prewar barrel to mate with a prewar receiver and wasn't very picky with dates. as long as the barrel and receiver manufacturers match then it doesn't hurt value by much.
 
The firearm survived firing military load ammo 100 years ago, so why not now?
Click to expand...

Because the human eye is incapable of seeing metal fatigue, until it's to late.

Can you guess which way I lean on this subject:D I own a low serial number 1903 and it is retired for safety purposes. Since I shoot at a public range I don't think it wise to use a gun that has documented safety issues. Just my opinion.
 
From tahunua:
"KraigWY will be along shortly to add his .02"

I'm waiting for Kraig too because I have a low number '03. 497xxx with a barrel date 9-11 SA. I haven't shot mine yet either.
 
You can search for Slamfire's posts on the subject and hear all the worst.

It is my understanding that a brittle action can go a long time shooting good ammunition. It is when it gets bad ammunition that things get ugly.
The sudden shock of gas released into the action by a blown casehead will demolish one (and maybe the shooter) where a good receiver will either stand up or just be bent.
How do you know your ammunition is right, sound brass and no overloads?
Well, it has been so far so it will always be?
 
Those bad actions don't "wear out", or show cracks, or "reach a breaking point", and the number of rounds fired or the age of the action is irrelevant. They are brittle, like a fine china plate. If you drop the china plate, it breaks, no matter how many meals have been eaten from it or how old it is.

And pressure also has little to do with it. Those actions stood proof, and some were proven more than once. But a sharp pressure blow shattered them. As an example, one that let go was fired with what the owner called his "rat shooting load", 9 grains of Bullseye and a round ball. Not an overload, not high pressure, but a very sharp blow.

And I know about that, as I struck one of those receivers with a 1 pound hammer and it broke in three pieces (I hit it in the right receiver rail, and the rail broke into two pieces, while the both ends and the left rail remained together.) A friend and I had been shooting that rifle the day before; he had put a couple of thousand rounds of GI ball ($.02 a round in those days) through it. (He was sending it back to DCM for a replacement, and condition didn't matter.)

Jim
 
I can't tell what to do, it's your rifle. It is correct that CMP rules prohibit their use in their programs and as a CMP gsm mi I will honor their rules. Just because
They worked in the past doesn't mean they won't self distruct the next shot. I believe the CMP armors know more about it then I do so I will heed their advice.
 
The only case I know of personally where a low number 03 failed (actually shatered) during firing also involved a ruptured case. This was quite a while back, and the wisdom of the times was that the early 03s were ok to shoot, only possibly turning into grenades if the case ruptured. (not a pierced primer, but an actual serious case failure).

Today, the wisdom is don't shoot them, its not worth the risks. Hang it up for a display (maybe even remove the firing pin tip) and get another rifle to play with is sound advice today.

IT may be safe with the right ammo. It may be safe with the right ammo for the next hundred years. OR it may fail the next time you shoot it, right ammo, or not. No one can say, so we err on the side of caution.
 
according to the writeup at 1903.org almost all the failures ocurred either with way over charged cases or in cases where the poorly manufactured casings of the time failed, IIRC us ordnance dept issued a memo that casing failures were an occupational hazard.
 
We can argue the aspect all day long. Frankly if someone chooses not to shoot their low SN 1903 I will respect that. They should also respect it if I choose to do so without any ranting and raving about how I am wrong and they are right.

I also pedal a bike to work all summer and winter when I can.

From those statistics I am far more likely to suffer a bike catastrophe than a low SN 1903. Should I quit? I used to motorcycle, also a huge risk (I mitigated it as best I could and continued to ride)

Walking out the door in the morning and getting in your car is a risk.

So, rather than he said, she said, with some data to put the risk in perspective, you can make your decision accordingly

As we have found out, there is some risk to just shooting as any gun can fail, certainly a risk in reloads (but there have been a lot of blown up guns due to faulty factory ammo as well).

So to pull one small risk factor out of the "shooting risk" and get obsess with it is a false if human reaction.

The real question should be is it a low sub set of risks in all risk factors.

Recently we had a heli ski operation kill (3 people I think). The statement was, we checked the snow and the it was not moving much! Ok, note to self, any movement means an avalanche, get the &*^% out of there. That is simply stupid risk on top of a pretty risky situation already.

I put the risk of shooting a low SN 1903 in the so low a factor as not to be relevant. Franky it looks like the weak brass had more to do with the blow ups than the receivers.

Mitigate it by actually assessing the gun as you should any gun (head space) use good ammo, safe reloading practices. Then shoot it if it passes the sanity checks (or not if you are not comfortable with it).

And as for blown up, no, but read this one as to REAL RISK FACTORS involving welded receiver recovered rifles!

http://glock.pro/ammunition-reloading/6077-time-stop-think.html

People will not shoot a proven 1903, but will shoot a hashed rifle, hmmmm
 
.

My $0.02 - It's easy to rationalize away danger, until it actually happens to YOU.


In my ballpark, low-numbered Springfields are for collecting/admiring - not shooting.



.
 
What is the risk of a trip to the gun range?

8 miles of driving for me and the odd of getting into an accident just getting there.

The point is being totally missed in that the risk is being cherry picked out of all the risk and then the virtuous comment that "I am being safe" is hidden behind the warm and fuzzy fluff.

Add up all your daily risks and put it into perspective. Eliminating one infinitesimal tiny one does nothing in the real picture .

Add in the risk at the run range to me by others (anywhere from someone going off their rocker to gross stupid I see displayed all the time?). Eating food is a risk. Flu is a risk. etc etc.

So, looking at risks then I simply should not shoot, or shop, eat or ........

People go on vacation to foreign countries and cruise ships all the time, but won't shoot a rifle because it has this "label" More hmmmmm

But they are out there shooting recovered drill rifles that were welded that are guaranteed to have induced a failure path (sooner or latter)

I can't tell what to do, it's your rifle. It is correct that CMP rules prohibit their use in their programs and as a CMP gsm mi I will honor their rules. Just because
They worked in the past doesn't mean they won't self distruct the next shot. I believe the CMP armors know more about it then I do so I will heed their advice.
Click to expand...

Does the CMP allow the use of recovered drill rifles?

And its not the armorers that make that decision, its the insurance and lawyers.

I respect what they are trying to do, but I have also had one thread where they ruled and then were proven totally wrong. So it goes.

So, I would not tell someone to shoot their low SN 1903, but I also would not tell them to go shooting either (or aid and encourage someone to ride motorcycles) . I will continue to put it in context.
 
I see RC20's point about calculated risks and his determination not to have his actions dictated by other's claims.

But I can say that when I watched those pieces of receiver hit the floor, I became a believer, and RC20 is not going to convince me that those rifles are safe or worth the risk just to brag about shooting them.

Jim
 
Thanks for all the input. I guess it's just as easy to wait for a high serial # to buy and pass on the low. I think I would be OK shooting it, but I could never let anyone else shoot it.
 
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