Losing faith in Colt ?

DPris, I won't argue the point about all the cheap guns used in the SASS. They like using BP a lot and that can do a number on newer guns not requiring the use of bp. If I fooled around with that stuff I'd definately have a couple of originals that I'd use, but to each his own. Your not correct in your thinking regarding all the interest in revolvers. Those people are into the western, but you have millions upon millions into all the other types, which when talking vintage also include the automatics. More people than you realize will pay for quality. They want their autos made like the goldcups used to be as well.

The black army, in an actual combat situation, will do as well in my hand as any other 1911, even if it was $5000. Metallurgy will mean absolutely nothing. In over 50 years I've never seen any kind of failure to function due to the metallurgy of any gun, which includes very many old guns.

You were in England a long time ago and I'm sure things have changed a bit, but I wasn't talking about the demand for pythons over there, especially in England. I think demand would be zero considering their gun laws. But my son-in-law was in Holland & Holland in London, while getting a letter for me regarding my Holland, the salesman was telling him about how high the sales were regarding their high end rifles and shotguns. As bad as the world economy is, it is apparently not slowing down the wealthy all over europe. Over there they are grabbing up like crazy collectible Winchesters, Remingtons and Springfields, etc.. That's what we did with the samarai swords and now Japan is trying to buy them back. My ex-partner's brother was a gun dealer in Florida and some 12, or 13 years back sold a number of 1st generation colts to the son of the late king of Jordan. Everything's being bought right out from under our noses.

It's not impractical for the colt custom shop to attempt to repair vintage guns, since they still have, at least I hope, some of the finest gunsmiths in the business? They're not capable of fabricating even something as simple as a revolver hand, or recoil plate? They used to do things like that all the time.

Discussing ballistics and metallurgy is out of my league. Right, or wrong I can only express my opinion and am always learning from others, but I do know a good gun when I see it and honestly I am very disappointed in looks, as well as quality seeing what's out there today. Years ago you could usually depend on a name, but that's not true, any longer today.......Pete
 
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This has been a fascinating thread. My every-day carry weapon is a Colt Commander Series 70 (yes, yes, I know). I have a 6920 that is, as far as I can discern, flawless. I've been considering purchasing a SAA. Just because.

I have to agree with DPris about servicing old, long-discontinued models. At some point, you have to rely on the after market. Will Ford still deliver parts for a Galaxy to your door?

BTW, I bought the 6920 from Ken at Wild West Guns, and the price was delivered. It was also a heck of a deal at the time, although I've watched with gritted teeth as the price of these rifles has fallen. I've often seen him offer delivered prices. So, for the folks wondering, there, you go. Ken will find you what you want.
 
I agree that this thread is very interesting and can easilly become very involved when talking old colts, or old anything. The nice thing is that everyone who's expressed an opinion have been totally civil, which makes this discussion even more enjoyable. My wife could learn from this.

But I'm digressing, anyway I can understand about why people feel that old guns are like old Fords and that the company just has to let go and let the owner of the gun find a solution to the problem at hand on their own. I have to disagree again. I'll give a couple of examples.

First, I have a Griffin & Howe custom mauser .270 that my uncle had built in 1951. I can call them tomorrow and have them take care of any problem I might be having with that gun. I was even thinking of having it modified to a takedown and they'll do that as well. I have a Holland & Holland magazine rifle 375NE mfg in 1911. I can bring that rifle to them and have any problem taken care of.

Now colt has always bragged about their custom shop. Well that's all it is, just bragging. My former partner has a SAA mfg in the 1870's that had a problem with the loading gate always flying open while shooting. He called colt in the mid 1980's and wanted them to repair it. They told him the gun was too old and wouldn't touch it. Please give me a break. That was a lot of nonsense and those primma donnas still haven't learned their lesson.

I just mentioned 2 companies that'll trip over themselves to do repairs on old guns, very old guns and expensive too and colt's custom shop isn't much cheaper, but just can't be bothered. Maybe they'd rather engrave guns, since they get nice money for that.

If anyone has a problem with their colt SAA just contact Peacemaker Specialists in California. They have a great list of 1st and 2nd gen parts and can be a very big help. They'll even repair cracks in the cast iron frames of the old bp's, but won't guarantee it not re-opening. They can take an old colt and re-finish it to factory specs, cause John Kopec was a colt gunsmith and was the original owner of this company. Even the markings can be re-stamped. They will not re-finish any old colt that has any original finish remaining. Now that's the way colt should be. End of story.
 
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Guns,
RE your Black Army, metallurgy most certainly CAN mean something if the frame, slide, or other non-heat-treated part lets go just when you need it.
You may not have seen it happen, but it has & does on those old pistols.

I realize my experiences in England were long ago, I merely mentioned England because you did, and I'll say that it'd be infinitely harder to sell Pythons there now.

Your references to classic and expensive English rifles of the H&H and
Griffin & Howe class are apples vs oranges in relating those to Python sales.
Those rifles are simply not affordable to the mass market, and the mass market is what Colt would have to target with a new DA revolver.
Notwithstanding your preferences and purchasing power, you are not representative of that market.
The Python would not be directed at the same people who buy expensive handmade big game rifles suitable for Africa. Some might buy, yes, but again- not in sufficient volume.
If those people truly want a DA revolver in the same class as those rifles, the Korth would be more in line.

Yes, it IS impractical for Colt to try to service long out of production guns. It requires money tied up in parts inventories, with the ancillary expenses involved with that, and it requires trained personnel. We've already talked about buying lean in parts stock, and Colt occasionally already comes up short of a small part here or there on current production guns. It'd have to be one or the other, not both. If they put the money into current parts, they can produce more guns. If they put the money into obsolete parts, current production would suffer.

Colt has limited quantities of both money and employees who can work on the old guns.
They do have competent gunsmiths, but how many people do you think they have right now who can work on the old V-Spring designs? The answer would probably surprise you. (Hint: You can count them on one hand.)
Most of those who used to do that are retired or dead.

Whether they're capable of fabricating a revolver hand or not is irrelevant, they're not making them.
As of February when I was discussing that very issue, they were looking into getting more made by a vendor.
I don't know how long it's been since Colt actually made a Python hand, or even ordered any, but it's been a while.

I do concur with your opinion of Peacemaker Specialists, Eddie has done three Model Ps for me.

Denis
 
DPris, I guess the memories I have regarding what colt used to do just won't allow me to accept their business practices today. Colt is a very large company, especially compared to Peacemaker Specialists. Peacemaker always come through for me and my friends and I'm glad you've dealt with them. They don't seem to have problems with stocking parts and look how small a company they are.

What I'd like colt to do wouldn't require a warehouse of parts costing a million. Besides, they charge big bucks for their services to begin with and attempting to assist customers with their older guns wouldn't be done for free. Besides, it's only a small part of their business.

Over the years they have never shown any backbone when the public fought for gun rights. As a matter of fact they abandoned their loyal customers, because they were comfortable with their military and LE associations. At this point in time they better suck up to individuals, cause I can remember when they did have die hard loyal customers. The govt at their whim will drop them like a hot potato and I believe to some extent they've already done that. I'm no businessman, but I can say for sure that if colt is that tight with money then they are as good as gone right now. Then again they can just put out garbage and try to exist on name recognition, but that only works for so long.

Winchester pulled this garbage too and look where it got them. They went down hill since '64 and finally closed up and pulled out of their home. Now they're back selling what cannot compare to their former products from somewhere in the south. I have a model21 field grade, which I love that was mfg in '49, but like Holland they made very high end guns like the model21 Grand American that sold for over $100,000. What in the world happened to them? They're only a shadow of their former self.

These companies eventually seem to catch a fatal bacteria that kills them called stupidity and greed. I'd buy a USFA before getting a new colt. Colt can do better, but I still feel their product line has quite a ways to go before they get my money again....Pete
 
What are you guys views on a Colt Match Target 20" Hbar made in 2009 ? Is this one of Colt's good guns or just a so so Colt ?
 
They should definately stock parts for the peacemaker, after all Uberti can make the parts for them like they used to and colt can then finish them off. There are plenty of 1st, 2nd and 3rd generation colt peacemakers out there needing some tender loving care.

All these Italian clones are doing well because colt let them do well. USFA are a little more than double the price of the clones, but are close to half the price of a good colt and they're as close to the originals as you can get. I think colt should consider a possible lowering of their prices. What they were producing wasn't worth what people had to pay.

I also think parts should be stocked at least for their most popular models such as; python, det spec, police pos, agent and woodsman. With the machinary at their finger tips a good craftsman can duplicate a small part for any weapon. But like I said before they have to make a better product and do a better job at inspecting them before they're shipped out.
 
Just like with Pythons, buy the individual gun, not the year.
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Exactly... this is true for any manufacturer. Look over the gun you are buying. The reality is that there is can be a varriance from one gun to another within the same year or batch.

This IMHO is especially true of 1911s. I like to personally inspect the ones I am purchasing unless I really trust the seller like I do with Ken of WWGs.
 
Guns,
Again, your comparisons are invalid.
Colt, of course, is a "big" company compared to Peacemaker Specialists, which consists entirely of one guy who ONLY does Colt Peacemakers.
Eddie specializes in Colts, as the name implies. Being a one-man shop & sole owner carries inherent advantages as well as disadvantages.
Colt has a multiple ownership situation, a diversified (compared to Eddie) product line, and a huge overhead with major investment in physical production assets.

Eddie can float the financing for parts orders from vendors to his specs to work on old Peacemakers as well as more recent ones because he's a niche operation himself, a total repair & custom shop, and not a maker. Working on those guns, not making them, is all he does. No massive machinery investment, no employees to pay, no board of directors or investors to play footsie with.
It's his entire reason for existing as a business entity, which is totally unlike Colt.

May interest you to know that Colt pretty much keeps their custom shop going as a customer relations thing. It's not a huge money maker for the company. They'll go quite a ways to maintain good will in keeping it open, but only so far. They're not a restoration service, and they're not going to deal with 100-year-old Peacemakers.
As you mention, buying & stocking parts for long gone guns would only be a small part of the business, and for that reason alone not worth bothering about.

Unfortunate if that doesn't meet your expectations, but (as I mention repeatedly) it's a money issue.

About which- I dunno where you've been, but Colt has been operating on a shoestring since the bankruptcy of the 1990s.
They had to let many people go, were continually scrambling for financing, and some here can probably remember when they didn't even have enough people to answer the phone regularly.

As of three years ago, the entire marketing department was two people. And then one quit. :)

This is why I keep trying to get the point across that Colt is NOT a "big" company, Colt has NOT had the money to put heavily into R&D, they CAN'T just decide "Hey, people want more Colts, let's double production next week", resources went FIRST into the military side because the military market was making the money, Colt did NOT "abandon" the civilian market just to **** people off, and it has been much easier to produce variations on gun models already in production than to develop & produce an entirely new "Gee Whiz!" gun.

Right now, with the recent acquisition of CNC equipment for the civilian side, the new facility in Florida, and the ability to hire an actual ad agency last year for the first time in years, things ARE looking up for the company.

Your conception of Winchester's also slightly off. :)
There is no "Winchester", aside from the ammunition.
When the New Haven USRAC plant closed in '06, there wasn't even really an USRAC. "USRAC" was only the plant operation.

Winchester-marked guns were made by that plant which was owned by FN in Belgium and Winchester-marked guns were marketed, both domestic and imports, by Browning, also owned by FN. Browning also serviced the Winchester guns in Missouri.

Today, Browning has the licensing rights to import and market foreign Winchesters as well as those made in the South Carolina FN plant.
Winchester is only a brand name, not a company. Most Winchesters, aside from the Model 70, are made overseas.

You can gripe about what put Colt and "Winchester" where they are today, but it won't change anything.
If you're not happy with them, don't buy them. :)

Times change all over.
Current Smiths aren't what they used to be, life goes on.
Many of the great guns across brand lines are either cheapened to keep prices down (while people still complain and look for an "affordable" $400 Glock) or gone altogether.

As the generations pass and new people don't know the difference between the old and the new, and they're willing to accept the new, that's the trend.
I don't like it much myself, but...

And as that trend continues & more classics disappear, it'll be up to the little guys like Eddie and Jack First to fill in the blanks on parts no longer carried by the original makers.
I HOPE they're around for a long time. :)


Rebs,
I tested one of those at about that time, good rifle.
Back to the full-ring military bolt carrier, heavy, but a decent shooter.

Denis
 
Guns,
You posted another one while I was writing, so:

With the exception of the Black Powder Series of percussion revolvers, Uberti did not ever make Peacemaker or any other parts for Colt.

The Italian clones are doing well because they sell for less than half of what the Colts do, and the difference in production costs (wages again, among others) and quality allow those prices.
No Uberti clone ever made was or is the equal of a Colt Peacemaker.
Not a matter of Colt "letting" them do well. The Italians have always taken shortcuts, the Colt version is an expensive gun to build, the way Colt makes 'em.
You want prices to come down? If they did, quality would too, and then Colt fans would be screaming about that.

Talk Uberti into building a Python & see how well the result would be accepted by true & knowledgeable Colt fans. :)

Have you checked USFAs prices lately? They're now crowding Colt.
USFA clones are not as close to the originals as you can get. Dimensions are not the same across the board.
Very nice guns, yes, but typically oversprung in my direct experience & I've had two here with canted front sights. They are not the new SAA God.

Colt did the best they could on pricing the Model P in eliminating a distributor level & going dealer direct some time ago.
Did you see the part above about it being an expensive gun to build?
At one point not long ago, they discovered they were actually losing money on the guns & had to adjust upwards.

We've already gone over the expense of buying, stocking, inventory tracking, and so on involved in maintaining stocks of parts. It costs money. Again- see above. :)
Dealing with an increase in older guns coming in for service would also either increase salary costs to Colt in hiring more people & training them to do the work, or increase the turnaround times substantially if they stick with the existing manpower.
There's always more iceberg you can't see in making business decisions like this. People just think "They oughta do this" or "Why don't they do that?", without much of an understanding of what'd be involved in doing this or that.

My last email on the Python hand issue refered to the difficulty of getting a part reliably made to print by a vendor.
Colt isn't going to make it in-house. Colt won't make other small parts like triggers, hammers, and bolts for long obsolete revolvers or ancient Peacemakers in-house either.

Denis
 
Dpris, I know very well winchester is gone except they're here in name only. There will never be another winchester rifle produced to match the original ones. That's why I own what I own at the present.

It doesn't matter what I think about the colt company of today. I unfortunately recall in great detail what they did for their customers in the early 60's and they surprisingly were very accomidating where old guns were concerned.

I own nothing of their products manufactured later than the early 70's for good reason. I only buy the best that I can possibly afford and won't spend a penny on something that I consider junk. Their business practices are their concern and I haven't a doubt in my mind that they're almost as good as gone right now.

They still have the name colt and I'm sure there are those lucky ones to have been lucky enough to purchase something quite good from them. But I'm not playing their game of Russian roulette.

The last new gun purchase I made was my G27. For years I ran from any gun which had plastic added. My Steyr mannlicher mod M 7x57 carbine made me see the light. The Glock did have their problems, which turned me off and now with the new 4th gen may have some more problems. But I'll tell them that they better be careful, cause they to can go down the drain. My Glock works very well and I have no complaints. I do trust it more than a new colt auto.

I guess you feel they're a very good company and see wonderful things in their future. I being old fashioned, stubborn and untrusting see a storm cloud for them over the horizon. Seeing them disappear doesn't give me pleasure, but those businessmen and women are self destructing. We'll see!
 
Their business practices are their concern and I haven't a doubt in my mind that they're almost as good as gone right now...

I guess you feel they're a very good company and see wonderful things in their future. I being old fashioned, stubborn and untrusting see a storm cloud for them over the horizon. Seeing them disappear doesn't give me pleasure, but those businessmen and women are self destructing. We'll see!
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If you know nothing about their internal business practices how can you know that they are as good as gone? How on earth would you know that they are self-destructing. Name another firearms manufacture the same size as Colt or bigger that is selling every single gun they produce.

The reality is that neither you or I knows exactly how that translates to their bottom line but at least I have the good sense not to make statements about things I have no knowledge of...

I also find it odd that you would trust a gun which had issues more than a gun you have not owned and shot extensively. You have not bought a Colt since the 70s so how would you truly know how good or bad they are.

You are certainly entitled to not like Colt to hold a grudge based on their actions of the past but please enlighten us with facts.
 
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I hope that Colt continues to slowly improve and add more firearms to their lineup. Colt has come a long way the last several years, and they still have a way to go to get back to a comfortable level. I doubt Colt will be what they were in the 1950's, and even if they were to get back to that level, I am sure others will still dislike the way they do business for one reason or another.

I have heard for years how Colt will disapear, go out of business, etc...What most folks seem to over look is that even if Colt does go bankrupt, guess what? I am sure there will be other companies ready and willing to buy a part of, or the whole brand of Colt. It may change at some point, true, but there is too much money in the name alone if they go under, that another company or two will be trying to buy it. Even if the ownership does change hands in the future, how many will actually notice, beyond those of us on the internet?

Just my opinion.
 
So should I spend the extra cheese for a Colt Series 70, because they're built that much better than imported reproductions, or not? :confused:
 
So should I spend the extra cheese for a Colt Series 70, because they're built that much better than imported reproductions, or not?
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There is no right or wrong answer. It all depends on what you are looking for. Are you looking for a lifetime quality 1911 or something that is made to look like one?

I am not knocking guns like RIAs but they are what they are. For casual shooters they are great but they will not look as good and will not hold the value that a Colt will.

It all depends on what you value.
 
If you want a 70 for shooting first and collecting second (although all Colts hold value and I wouldn't be surprised if they are collectable down the road), look into the ones currently made by the Colt custom shop. The quality is fantastic, in a shiny brand new pistol, for around $1,000 (call Ken at Wild West Guns, AK).

The originals range from magnificent to a little squirrely mechanically, as does condition, obviously. The new ones are remarkably consistent, if lacking the mystique of age.

But both are supercool and outclass the bargain imports by a large margin, get whatever kicks over your giggle-box.
 
A 70 series does not have to be old.... They are available NIB.

colts-3.gif
 
Guns,
Y'know, I can sit here & tell you over and over and over and over (and then a few more overs) that Colt ain't what it used to be & explain some of how they're doing business now, but I don't see it getting through to you.
These are not the 1960s, and Colt never again will be what it was back then, but the company's far from dead & the General and his people have pretty much pulled off a miracle as far as I'm concerned in even keeping the Colt name in the biz.

They are far from going under, progress is slow but measurable, and even though you don't see the latest plastic Gee Whiz Gun To Beat All Plastic Gee Whiz Guns coming out of Hartford today, this month, or this year, you very well might next year or the year after.

None of this is about me feeling Colt is "a very good company", it's about answering the original poster's question and correcting misinformation that followed it.
Decades of top-heavy mis-management & arrogance brought Colt to the brink of disaster in the past, I don't ignore any of that. But, this ain't your grandpa's Colt company we're dealing with today.

I do at least see A future for Colt, and a much brighter one than ten years ago. Whether that future holds bright things or not, I won't predict simply because the gun world is too volatile and unpredictable in general lately to do that.

But, in the meantime I think WVsig and Fishing Cabin both have a more realistic take on the Colt situation than you do. :)

Times change, guns change, markets change, and we all have to change to some degree right along with them.


And, I checked today. Colt has not been able to make any progress on new Python hands.
Denis
 
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