Even though the 6mms and 6.5s are superior to the .308 there is nothing wrong with one. Running berger 175gr BT LRs around here @ 2618fps out of a factory 24" remington they stay supersonic out to 1200yds, depending on conditions. Out of a custom barrel the results usually are increased fps. Hell with some new powders or tighter bore some people are getting 2700+ on 175s out of shorter barrel length.
Long Range - Where to start? Action or Cal?
- Thread starter joeranger
- Start date
chucknbach
New member
Amen to that.
My advice put a LR scope(turrets, with enough adjustment) on your 5.56 get yourself out to that 500yd mark then go from there. That way you'll have more experience to make a more informed decision, instead of just buying all the goodies suggested on a forum and going for 1000.
The only goodie that I'd suggest going ,all the way, up front is the range finder get one now (if you don't have one) that will range out the distance you think you'll be shooting in the future as you'll be limited to your range finders capabilities.
Reloading is your friend at longer ranges. A custom gun is not necessary but will help. For prairie dogs use the round with the lest recoil you can so you can see your hits. I use a .243 after about 300 I can get the scope back on to see the hits(most of the time).
Must haves
LR scope
range finder
crono
Other things in order of importance
1. reloading equipment
2. semi/custom rifle
3. wind meter
Straight from Federal Premium data.
.243 at 1000yds with a 10mph crosswind
95gr Nosler BT -364.6in drop 119.3in wind drift
100gr SGK -340.3in drop 102.3 wind drift
.308 with same wind and yardage
168gr SMK -416.6in drop 108.3in wind drift
175gr SMK -407.0in drop 98.7in wind drift
.243 at 1000yds with a 10mph crosswind
95gr Nosler BT -364.6in drop 119.3in wind drift
100gr SGK -340.3in drop 102.3 wind drift
.308 with same wind and yardage
168gr SMK -416.6in drop 108.3in wind drift
175gr SMK -407.0in drop 98.7in wind drift
mnhntr said:
I screwed up when I posted my post when I stated the .308 was slightly better in windage and trajectory.
taylorce1 said:
Then you posted:
mnhntr said:
So I screwed up on the trajectory part, however I feel that they still wash out. So you have to turn the knob on your scope a few more clicks to compensate for trajectory, but with windage being basicly equal it doesn't matter with what you choose as trajectory is the easiest to compensate for. The OP stated that they want to eventually get to 1000 yards and do it without reloading so if we throw out the bullets and loads that will go subsonic before 1000 yards that still leave him with better options in the .308 ammunition.
BTW I find that JBM is a more reliable source for ballistics than Federal's site. At least when I plug actual numbers from my Chrony in and then go shoot at the range to see if the dope is correct. Here is what I get for drop and windage from a 100 yard zero.
95 grain NBT, .243 Win, MV 3025 fps
1000 yard drop -374.1" or -35.7 MOA, Windage 10 mph 124.4" or 11.9 MOA
168 grain SMK, .308 Win, MV 2650 fps
1000 yard drop -449.2" or -42.9 MOA, Windage 10 MPH 124.1" or 11.8 MOA
100 grain SGK, .243 Win, MV 2960 fps
1000 yard drop -363.9" or -34.8 MOA, Windage 10 MPH 115.6" or 11.0 MOA
175 grain SMK, .308Win, MV 2600 fps
1000 yard drop -422.4" or -40.3 MOA, Windage 10 MPH 106.5" or 10.2 MOA
I just don't see any huge advantage to the .243 running with limited factory ammunition. However if you plug in my 105 grain A-Max "hand load" I posted there is a larger advantage to the .243 Win my hand load vs. .243/.308 Win factory load.
105 grain A-Max, .243 Win, 3147 MV
1000 yard drop -266.4 or -25.4 MOA, Windage 10 MPH 78.8" or 7.5 MOA
And I still say there is not such thing as too big for prairie dogs!!!
I guess we will agree to disagree. If everyone had the same opinion there would be only a handfull of calibers. I do not use Federal for anything more than their own factory ammo. Have you ever used isnipe? I have not used JBM. I use isnipe for most of my ballistic apps stuff. How do you rate JBM as far as real world correctness? What rifle are you shooting for your .243?
I've used it on a most of my rifles to do MPBR for hunting. As far as trajectory goes, it works great and I've found it to be correct. I keep tweaking the data as I get more of it for known loads and it dials in awesome. Reading the wind is my biggest problem and I haven't been out to 1K yet with my .243 Win yet to test it.
The rifle I've used it the most with is my little 6X47 (6mm-222 Rem Mag) launching 70 grain NBT at 3066 fps. If I'm reading the wind right I can consistantly hit prairie dog sized targets at 500 yards without really thinking. Best day I had with it was going 10 out of 10 at 600 yards on an 8" round plate. I'd like to say I held better than MOA sized qroup but I didn't.
The rifle I've used it the most with is my little 6X47 (6mm-222 Rem Mag) launching 70 grain NBT at 3066 fps. If I'm reading the wind right I can consistantly hit prairie dog sized targets at 500 yards without really thinking. Best day I had with it was going 10 out of 10 at 600 yards on an 8" round plate. I'd like to say I held better than MOA sized qroup but I didn't.
nicknitro71
New member
For reaching 1000 yards you need a fast and flat shooting round that is able to retain lots of energy at extended range.
.50 BMG.
.408 CheyTac
.338 Lapua Magnum.
The only .30 that cuts it is the .300 WM, the .308 is great up to 600, same for the .30-06. Said that it's not pleasant to shoot unless you get a muzzle brake.
Smaller calibres mean lighter bullets with more marginal ballistic and more susceptible to wind drift and of course less energy if you intend to kill anything at that range. Said that, the .270, 25-06, 7mm magnum, and to some extent the lighter .243 are all flat shooting and inherently accurate rounds with manageable recoil but really not true 1000 yard rounds.
You said potential to 1000+, then I'd stick to the .300 WM, it's still relatively cheap to shoot and widely available and if you reload, it's a .30 calibre so the choices are limitless. If you don't mind paying more, then get the .338 LM. If money is no object, a .50 BMG will put a big smile on your face every round you fire! If you feel a bit more experimental, give the .408 CT a try!
.50 BMG.
.408 CheyTac
.338 Lapua Magnum.
The only .30 that cuts it is the .300 WM, the .308 is great up to 600, same for the .30-06. Said that it's not pleasant to shoot unless you get a muzzle brake.
Smaller calibres mean lighter bullets with more marginal ballistic and more susceptible to wind drift and of course less energy if you intend to kill anything at that range. Said that, the .270, 25-06, 7mm magnum, and to some extent the lighter .243 are all flat shooting and inherently accurate rounds with manageable recoil but really not true 1000 yard rounds.
You said potential to 1000+, then I'd stick to the .300 WM, it's still relatively cheap to shoot and widely available and if you reload, it's a .30 calibre so the choices are limitless. If you don't mind paying more, then get the .338 LM. If money is no object, a .50 BMG will put a big smile on your face every round you fire! If you feel a bit more experimental, give the .408 CT a try!
allaroundhunter
New member
Really? The .308 is only a 600 yard cartridge?.....
And you really are missing some data considering that you said the smaller cartridges are only marginal.... Especially since the smaller 6-7mm calibers are much more popular for 1,000 yard shooting (by experienced shooters) than either of the 4 calibers that you claimed to be better....
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HA HA I guess I better not tell you my .260 rem out performs most factory 300win mag load after 1000 yds. The .243 .260 and .308 are all excellent 1000 yd calibers as are the multitude of other smaller calibers such as 6.5x284, 6.5-06, 6mm BR, 6.5CM, 6.5x47, .243wsm, and the list goes on and on. You do not need a .50BMG or even a .338 to shoot 1k.
Nicknitro said:
You do realize mostly the entire 1000yd benchrest setting and some records are inhabited by 6mms? 6mm, 6.5s, and .284/7mms are all very very good long range cartridges. Hell the 195gr hybrid .284 has damn near the BC of a 300gr 338 hybrid.
.308 is also a perfectly adequate cartridge for 1000yds..
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nicknitro71
New member
Pardon me but my experience is military not bench-resting by any means.
The objective of a round @ 1000 yards is to be able to hit and kill a human-sized animal with one shot hence the .300 WM as the minimum qualifier. The .308 lacks speed and its trajectory is harder to master than the faster and flatter .300 WM.
Said that, the average difference between a heavy calibre and light calibre @ 1000 yards is about 1", and 1" less for the .50, if you want to spilt hair.
Please show me anyone grouping less than 2" with a light calibre.
http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/2010/09/matt-kline-shoots-2-815-record-at-1000-yards-with-300-wsm/
http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/2009/07/rasmussen-sets-new-1-9557-50-cal-record-at-1000-yards/
We can argue all day long but ballistics is a simple science governed by very simple equations.
I could not care less what the bench-rest crowd are doing, if it was me shooting @ 1000 yards, among the most common widely available ammunition, I'd pick the .300 WM 178/180 gr. and loaded hot but I would really love a .50!
In a good day anything is possible but when it comes to shooting in a verity of weather and winds, a heavier more powerful round is always preferred.
Besides, the original poster said potential to 1000+ which could mean one mile out.
The objective of a round @ 1000 yards is to be able to hit and kill a human-sized animal with one shot hence the .300 WM as the minimum qualifier. The .308 lacks speed and its trajectory is harder to master than the faster and flatter .300 WM.
Said that, the average difference between a heavy calibre and light calibre @ 1000 yards is about 1", and 1" less for the .50, if you want to spilt hair.
Please show me anyone grouping less than 2" with a light calibre.
http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/2010/09/matt-kline-shoots-2-815-record-at-1000-yards-with-300-wsm/
http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/2009/07/rasmussen-sets-new-1-9557-50-cal-record-at-1000-yards/
We can argue all day long but ballistics is a simple science governed by very simple equations.
I could not care less what the bench-rest crowd are doing, if it was me shooting @ 1000 yards, among the most common widely available ammunition, I'd pick the .300 WM 178/180 gr. and loaded hot but I would really love a .50!
In a good day anything is possible but when it comes to shooting in a verity of weather and winds, a heavier more powerful round is always preferred.
Besides, the original poster said potential to 1000+ which could mean one mile out.
Jim Watson
New member
Everything is a compromise.
I note that Matt Kline was NOT shooting a .300 WM but a .300 WSM, which the target shooters think matters.
I have read that the military is converting long action .308s to .300 WM in lieu of .338 Laps, which makes sense logistically, the belted case already being in the system.
The .50 is certainly a horse of a different color. But I sure would not want to hump the Rasmussen rifle in the back of beyond for the purpose of shooting at foreigners.
If you think a 178 grain bullet is enough, you probably ought to be shooting it out of one or another 7mm instead of a big .30. The .300 magnums start being worthwhile about 210 gr.
I note that Matt Kline was NOT shooting a .300 WM but a .300 WSM, which the target shooters think matters.
I have read that the military is converting long action .308s to .300 WM in lieu of .338 Laps, which makes sense logistically, the belted case already being in the system.
The .50 is certainly a horse of a different color. But I sure would not want to hump the Rasmussen rifle in the back of beyond for the purpose of shooting at foreigners.
If you think a 178 grain bullet is enough, you probably ought to be shooting it out of one or another 7mm instead of a big .30. The .300 magnums start being worthwhile about 210 gr.
603Country
New member
Remember that the OP is a guy that wants to get into long distance shooting, but does not reload. I don't know that those two things can coexist, but if they can, what caliber will give him the most options on buying match grade ammo? I'm guessing that it's the 308. That's probably where he ought to start out. If he decides that he likes this long range shooting, he most likely will buy reloading gear (who wouldn't) and by that time he may know more about what he really wants - maybe a 6.5 or maybe a 30 cal Mag. For paper punching, I'd probably go for one of the 6.5's because I don't want to be shooting a 300 Mag all day. On the other hand, if I was crawling to a hilltop to deliver the goods at 1000 yards in a hostile area, I'd go for the big Magnum.
allaroundhunter
New member
NickNitro71, Using a .308 Win. at 1000 yards with aperture sights, I've put 5 shots in a row inside 2 inches. That's no big deal to me. Few, if any few-shot record holders ever shoot that well again with the barrel that made their current one. They're the smallest groups ever shot by that barrel. Who knows what the largest one was; that's probably not going to be made public.
If you look at the 1000 yard benchrest aggregate records for 6 groups, you'll see the rifles and their ammo average in the 6 and 7 inch range. That tells what the best rifles will do all the time; on the average. It also means their largest group in that agg record was bigger than the average; typically 30 to 60% bigger.
If you look at the 1000 yard benchrest aggregate records for 6 groups, you'll see the rifles and their ammo average in the 6 and 7 inch range. That tells what the best rifles will do all the time; on the average. It also means their largest group in that agg record was bigger than the average; typically 30 to 60% bigger.
NickNitro said:
We're not talking lethality of cartridges, though the .308 is still adequate enough for a 1000yd kill. Longest 7.62x51mm kill was in iraq @ 1250m. Given the proper ammunition the .308 while not the most practical, is adequate enough for 1000yds. Hell i'm running 175gr BT LRs at 2618fps around here i stay supersonic out to 1100-1200yds conditions pending. My point was to clarify the 6mms are actually a great choice for distance shooting. There are many calibers that have similar ballistics than .300WM but use less powder and have less recoil.
I was under the impression the OP was just starting so i can't honestly see him wanting to go a mile, but it's a possibility.
While i might choose .300WM if i didn't reload it'd be hard. Match ammo is expensive for .308 much less .300WM.
nicknitro71
New member
I stand corrected. I know next to nothing about all these newest semi-wildcats (they are all flavor-of-the-month to me) but the original poster does not even reload!!! I've never, ever seen a 6.5-284 Norma is any common ammo store I visit. For what I care you can take a .50BMG and neck it down to a 6mm and see how it goes!
This guy wants something to reach 1000+, he does not reload, and he wants something he can grow with hence I'd suggest the .300WM (unless he can afford a .50) which you can pick anywhere and given all that powder, a federal premium won't be too far off from the best hand-loaded and you get the same accuracy as in any wildcat you can name of plus tons of more energy and better wind-drif resistance.
My next second choice, given his constraints, would be a .270 or 25-06 which are popular, fast, and accurate. Hack, I pick a .243 over the .308 any day of the week for accuracy, again stock ammo for stock ammo. The .308 is an excellent round but I like to reserve it for semi-auto, for a precision bolt, there are way better options even if you do not reload, gee I take a 30-06 over the .308!
This guy wants something to reach 1000+, he does not reload, and he wants something he can grow with hence I'd suggest the .300WM (unless he can afford a .50) which you can pick anywhere and given all that powder, a federal premium won't be too far off from the best hand-loaded and you get the same accuracy as in any wildcat you can name of plus tons of more energy and better wind-drif resistance.
My next second choice, given his constraints, would be a .270 or 25-06 which are popular, fast, and accurate. Hack, I pick a .243 over the .308 any day of the week for accuracy, again stock ammo for stock ammo. The .308 is an excellent round but I like to reserve it for semi-auto, for a precision bolt, there are way better options even if you do not reload, gee I take a 30-06 over the .308!
nicknitro71 said:
That is why we have been recommending the .308 Win, next to the .223 it has far more options for ammunition than anything you have mentioned. Plus it is more affordable than anything you have brought up in .300 Win or above to shoot. Cheaper to shoot equates to more time at the range shooting and learning the skill for long range.
nicknitro71 said:
Yes the .300 Win is a good 1000 yard cartridge there is no doubt however it isn't as pleasurable to shoot. Why do you think the 6.5 and smaller calibers have been doing so well in competition? They don't fatigue the shooter like a magnum cartridge doesn't and they are able to shoot consistently for a longer period of time.
As you can see the .300 Win does do everything you stated better than the .308, but it isn't by a whole lot once you get to 1000 yards. Roughly 300 fps faster, 400 ft-lbs of energy more, 17.5" less wind drift, and 103.1" flatter trajectory. Like it has been stated before in many other threads on this forum trajectory is the easiest to compensate for. A good optic with repeatable adjustments, known range or good range finder, and knowing the velocity of your load, there are several ballistic apps that will get you dialed in quickly. Reading the wind is going to be the tough part, but they are only 7 clicks of adjustment apart on windage or 1.75 MOA on a 1/4 MOA adjustment scope in a 10 mph wind.
nicknitro71 said:
Sure you could get the same thing done with all the cartridges you mentioned but again not with as many ammunition options for the non-reloader. The .25-06 and .270 don't offer any factory loads that have bullets with great ballistic coefficients (BC). I love both cartridges and shoot both on a regular basis but they just don't have the bullets without going custom and having special twist barrels to really be LR shooters. Velocity which results in a shorter time of flight (TOF) will only compensate for a bad BC so much and in the long run the bullet with the better BC will retain more energy, velocity, and wind resistance.
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Anything 1200 and under get a 308. for 1000-2500 yards get a 338lm. Savage makes reasonably priced and very accurate rifles in both chamberings. No reason to complicate matters and mess with any other chamberings, unless your doing competitions and need to meet certain standards.
I don't know where many people get the idea that the 308 falls out of the sky and just drops at 800 yards. As long as you use 175gr SMK's , 1000 yards is supersonic and very easy for the 308 cartridge. The challenge is to the shooter not the cartridge. The 175 smk's are also very stable past the transonic barrier, so it doesn't even have to end there. I have shot it out to a mile, granted that was with bad consistency. But a couple weeks ago I shot out to 1400 yards hitting 4 in a row out of 5. So you can be confident buying a 308 if you want to shoot in the 1000 yard range. I have no experience with hte 6mm's and I know they are a great cartridge as well, but if you don't reload I am pretty sure they are alot more expensive than FGMM at a dollar a pop. Also, just buy a rifle with a muzzle break and the 308 is like a baby. If my 100lb fiance can shoot 50+ shots of my 308 within a couple hours and not complain, then you can too.
I don't know where many people get the idea that the 308 falls out of the sky and just drops at 800 yards. As long as you use 175gr SMK's , 1000 yards is supersonic and very easy for the 308 cartridge. The challenge is to the shooter not the cartridge. The 175 smk's are also very stable past the transonic barrier, so it doesn't even have to end there. I have shot it out to a mile, granted that was with bad consistency. But a couple weeks ago I shot out to 1400 yards hitting 4 in a row out of 5. So you can be confident buying a 308 if you want to shoot in the 1000 yard range. I have no experience with hte 6mm's and I know they are a great cartridge as well, but if you don't reload I am pretty sure they are alot more expensive than FGMM at a dollar a pop. Also, just buy a rifle with a muzzle break and the 308 is like a baby. If my 100lb fiance can shoot 50+ shots of my 308 within a couple hours and not complain, then you can too.
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