Long Range - Where to start? Action or Cal?

This is not for big game and I do not reload.

How do I choose a cal based on the following;
Long distance but no need to bring down big game.
Commercially available ammo/options
Cost/recoil not as much a factor since it would not be a primary gun
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Those two stamenents right there tell me you need a .308 or .223 just because you don't reload. Sure you can get great ammunition for any of the other cartridges mentioned, but you will not have as many options available nor will it be offered as cheap. They both will reach 500+ yards easily but I'd favor the .308 at 1000.

IIRC there are (or were in production) 1:7 twist .223 bolt actions out there from both Remington and Savage. That will allow you to shoot the heaviest match bullets and really extend the range of the .223. However, the .308 will be much easier to find and you won't have to look for a special fast twist like you have to in .223 Rem.
 
I'm gonna go back to my old rant about you don't need to spend $3-5K for a good long range shooter.

I have several long range target guns and they shoot very well. But the best shooter in my gun case is the 243 I built for my wife. Standard hunting weight barrel Model 70 with a Winchester factory stock. Using 87 gn Bergers it will out shoot any of my target rifles including my 300 WM I built for 1000 yard shooter.

It cost me right at $240 to build that gun, (less glass).

It isn't the money you spend that gets you to 1000, but the time you put in getting there. Meaning long range shooting is about judging wind and other conditions, you get that by practice.

The less you have to spend shooting, means you can buy more bullets to shoot to get that practice.
 
I would look at a Savage LRP in .243 I have this rifle in .260 but if you are shooting Pdogs and do not reload the .243 is better. The .243 will do everything you are wanting to do. .308 is too big for Pdogs and the .243 will do 1000k yds just as well or better than the .308
 
mnhntr said:
Ya but do you want to launch a 220gr bullet for Pdogs or a 90gr ?
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Who fires 220 gr bullets out of a .308? Typically 208 gr A-Max is the heaviest round that you will see. Even the more common 168 gr and 175 gr are heavy for varminting though......

Still, I would recommend the .308 over the 6mm calibers, one reason being because of factory match ammo options. Since the OP doesn't reload, many of the suggestions that have been given are not the best choices.


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Impalacustom and allaroundhunter,. . . . some folks have shot 240 grain bullets leaving 2200 fps and 250's at 2150 fps from .308 Win. cases at 1000 yard targets. Their wind drift's the same as a .243 caliber 107 grain match bullet leaving at 3000 fps.

mnhntr,. . . . I'll pick the bullet that bucks the wind best for a tiny target at 1000 yards. You gotta hit the p-dog with the first shot else he's down his hole from nearby splattering stuff scaring the dickens outta him.
 
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Bart, yes, I understand that heavier rounds are *occasionally* used in .308, but comparing apples to apples (as far as bullet weights for caliber) would have been a 168 gr (or lighter) .308 to a 90 gr 6mm.

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Bart, show me a factory loaded 240 or 250gr 308. If you are talking about reloads then the 6mm will still beat it with 115gr. The NRA National High Power Long Range Rifle record is held by a 6mm bullet.
 
Kraigwy said:
I'm gonna go back to my old rant about you don't need to spend $3-5K for a good long range shooter.

I have several long range target guns and they shoot very well. But the best shooter in my gun case is the 243 I built for my wife. Standard hunting weight barrel Model 70 with a Winchester factory stock. Using 87 gn Bergers it will out shoot any of my target rifles including my 300 WM I built for 1000 yard shooter.

It cost me right at $240 to build that gun, (less glass).

It isn't the money you spend that gets you to 1000, but the time you put in getting there. Meaning long range shooting is about judging wind and other conditions, you get that by practice.

The less you have to spend shooting, means you can buy more bullets to shoot to get that practice.
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Agreed. It's more so the shooter than the rifle.
 
Impala, I know there ain't any factory .308 ammo with bullets heavier than 200 grains. 240's and 250's were mentioned for capabiliby, not factory ammo.

I also don't like to use shooting records as a base for comparisons; they typically are the result of luck. 'Specially in the benchrest game at long range.

Regarding the NRA Nat'l LR Agg. Record, yes, David Tubb shot it last year with his 6XC cartridge, one that's about 1/8 inch shorter in case body than the .243 Win. He shot that 1249-68X score in very favorable (lucky?)conditions.

This years NRA Nat'l LR Agg. was won by a Brit using a .308 Win. shooting 155's and 190's. He shot in more difficult winds than what last years were shot in. Still he managed a score of 1246-74X; close enough to Tubb's record score to be statistically equal. Lot of 6.5x.284's were also used this year and they got outshot but still had a good share of the top 20 places. Tubb and his 6XC managed 28th place this year with a 1235-57X score. And until we know how far out in the 9 ring those dropped points were for both Tubb (maybe he even shot an 8 or two!!!) and Luckman, David Luckman may well have shot a smaller size set of groups than Tubb did. Doesn't matter either way, the .308 proved its worth when it's windy in the hands of someone capable.
 
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Bart, I agree the 308 is a great round, but for a factory rifle with factory ammo and just punching paper the 6mmBR can't be beat. Even Bryan Litany explains why the 30 calibers are struggling to compete with the smaller stuff, unless in magnum's.

Tubb's shot the only perfect ever score, 1450/1450 with his 6XC in 2004.
 
impalacustom, right you are; 'twas 2004 when Tubb shot the record score, not last year. Last year's was just the winning score. Note the conditions in 2004 during the long range matches were impeccable.

But I think the 6.5x.284's are shooting better scores than the 6mm's in prone matches. In LR benchrest, some 6mm's are doing well, but the belted 30's are maintaining a slim margin over all. If the 6mm bullets could be made such as their variables were as small percentage wise as the 30 caliber bullets, they'd kick the pants (and skirts) off everbody shooting larger ones. That was the reason why it took 28 caliber match bullets 10 years to catch up with the 30 caliber ones. And it'll be a few years before 26 caliber ones catch up with the 28 and 30's; they're a favorite now because their milder recoil makes 'em easier to shoot accuratly off the shoulder than the 28's and 30's.
 
Who fires 220 gr bullets out of a .308? Typically 208 gr A-Max is the heaviest round that you will see. Even the more common 168 gr and 175 gr are heavy for varminting though......

Still, I would recommend the .308 over the 6mm calibers, one reason being because of factory match ammo options. Since the OP doesn't reload, many of the suggestions that have been given are not the best choices.
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HSM makes 95gr Berger VLD loads that will do much better in the wind than any factory 168gr .308
The .243 is the best choice for what you are after.
 
mnhntr said:
I would look at a Savage LRP in .243 I have this rifle in .260 but if you are shooting Pdogs and do not reload the .243 is better. The .243 will do everything you are wanting to do. .308 is too big for Pdogs and the .243 will do 1000k yds just as well or better than the .308
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There is no such thing as being too big for prairie dogs when you are talking of very few shots. If you are talking about shooting 100's of rounds a day then anything larger than a .22-250 is too much for prairie dogs. Just the muzzle blast and recoil will fatigue a shooter by the end of the day on a large prairie dog town. There are plenty of LR guys out there killing prairie dogs with .338 and larger rifles well out past 1000 yards.

mnhntr said:
HSM makes 95gr Berger VLD loads that will do much better in the wind than any factory 168gr .308
The .243 is the best choice for what you are after.
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No the .243 isn't the best option for what the OP wants. What happens if the HSM ammo doesn't shoot well in his rifle? Basing your rifle selection off of shooting one type of factory ammunition is crazy IMO. Look at Midway USA and the sheer selecition of factory ammunition for the .223 and .308 Win and it dwarfs the .243.

I'm not knocking the .243 Win for a LR rifle in fact I it is what I chose to run. I have a custom barrel that can handle the 115 grain DTAC and Bergers but I handload. Without being a handloader and trying to run the .243 at long range you will be severly handicapped when it comes to factory ammunition.

If you look at Midway's site and match grade ammunition for rifles it is easy to see that the .243 is pretty low in rank. In fact everything else ranks pretty low once you get past the .223 and .308 cartridges.

#1 .223 Remington over 50 match/target loads 40+ of them being 60 grains or heaver but all should stabalize in a 1:9 twist barrel and get the OP well past 500 yards. I didn't even include the 5.56x45 offerings. Plus it is the most affordable cartridge to shoot out of all mentioned which equates to more time shooting.

#2 .308 Winchester 44 match/target loads to choose from and some hunting loads that will work as well in the 180 grain range. Not including the 7.62X51 offerings.

#3 .30-06 Springfield 8 match/target loads plus a few hunting loads that offer 180-210 grain bullets like the Berger VLD and Nosler Accubond.

#4 .300 Winchester Magnum 7 match/target loads and again hunting bullets like the Berger VLD and Nosler AB.

#5 was a tie between the .260 Remignton and .300 Winchester Short Magnum both offeing 5 match/target loads apiece.

#6 was a tie betwen the .243 Win, 6.5 Creedmoor, and 6mm Norma BR with 2 match/target loads offered, but the .243 only had one offering that would shoot in a factory twist barrel and that was the 105 grain Nosler custom competiton bullet, the other was a corBon load with 115 grain DTAC. I didn't place it any lower because of the HSM 95 grain Berger load you metnioned.
 
I was not basing my opinion on one factory offering there are many for the .243. The .308 is overkill on Pdogs and varmints. The .223 is a **** ant in the wind over 500yds. Personally I shoot a .260 for long range but for a non reloader the obvious choice is the .243. Also if you download Federal's interactive ballistic application for all of their factory ammo the .243 is better in the wind and in trajectory to 1000yds in most applications.
 
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I was not basing my opinion on one factory offering there are many for the .243. The .308 is overkill on Pdogs and varmints. The .223 is a **** ant in the wind over 500yds. Personally I shoot a .260 for long range but for a non reloader the obvious choice is the .243. Also if you download Federal's interactive ballistic application for all of their factory ammo the .243 is better in the wind and in trajectory to 1000yds in most applications.
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I got the following info from Federal Cartridge, so you can plug it in your ballistcs app however you want (I used JBM). The .243 and .308 are about equal as a 100 grain Sierra GK matches pretty equal with the 175 grain SMK, and a 95 grain Nosler BT matches the 168 SMK pretty equal but the slight edge in trajectory and windage goes to the .308 at 1000 yards. If you step down to lighter weight bullets the .243 starts to loose ground and an 85 grain Sierra GK shoots like a 77 grain Sierra MK out of a .223 but again in trajectory and windage the .223 wins at 1000 yards. I forgot to mention that the light .243 bullets as well as the .223 go subsonic before getting to 1000 yards so realisticly who knows how they would perform unless you actually shot them at that distance.

I agree the .243 is a great choice for LR rifles but if you don't reload it can only equal not beat the .308 or .223 for performance. 1t isn't until you can shoot the 95 grain and heavier VLD or 105 grain and heavier match grade bullets that the .243 really comes to life as a LR rifle. So with more bullet options and ammunitionchoices the .223 and .308 still win out for the non-reloader. Sure you can get custom .243 Win ammuniiton loaded with any bullet you want but that is really expensive when compared to factory Match grade ammunition for the .308 and .223.

However, the ballistics on a 105 grain A-Max at 3147 fps (out of my rife) MV is pretty darn impressive.
 
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I forgot to mention that the light .243 bullets as well as the .223 go subsonic before getting to 1000 yards so realisticly who knows how they would perform unless you actually shot them at that distance.
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As does the .308 168gr SMK in a lot of circumstances.

For a commercial ammo only .308 is probably the best choice, with the Federal Gold Medal 175 gr being the gold standard. For a handloader, I still like the .260 (or even better, the 6.5-06, but Wildcats and custom chamberings are beyond the scope of this discussion)

Keep in mind that for a single bolt action rifle, reloading is really not that big of a deal. Neck size the cases so they are fire-formed to your chamber, you don't need much leverage, I got by for years with a cheapo Lee kit with the flimsiest press imaginable on a portable bench.

Get this: http://www.midwayusa.com/product/121744/lee-challenger-breech-lock-single-stage-press-kit and A Collet Die set, clamp it to a Workmate and you are ready to make quality ammo that is tailored to your rifle.
 
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