Long Range Precision Rifle Questions.

.260 vs .308...

I have both and I reload for both. I have also shot some factory ammo out of both. The .260 today has about twice the number of loads that were available a year ago, and there are more in the works. Some of the .260 match loads are phenomenal. One of the Remington engineers has told me that the .260 is one of the cartridges they see the most interest in right now. I have confidence that the .260 Rem will see more loads as the "shortages" wear off and things return to normal. Several factory ballisticians have load charts worked up, but they have not tested them yet. There is also a bit of a battle in the 6.5 playing field as there are at least 5 good cartridges vying for attention. If I had to bet, I would bet on the .260, but still a bet.

There are multiple loads for the .308 that are true match grade with a variety of bullets so you can certainly find one that will work well in any rifle. It is a standby and any retailer with rifle ammo on the shelf will likely have a few flavors of .308, maybe one to three of .260.

Given my experiences, I would still choose the .260 over the .308 even if I did not reload. When you reload, the .260 is the obvious choice between the two.
 
If you wanted good factory match in a 6.5mm, take a look at the Creedmoor.
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Winchester and Hornady, yes good ammo.

However I take it you have not compared to the .260 in the last year. Rem, Nosler, Federal, Black Hills, Norma, Barnes plus a bunch of custom loaders like are now loading .260 Rem.

There are more .260 offerings (by about 30%) today in the .260 than the 6.5CM. There are twice the number of true match loads in .260 as compared to the 6.5CM. A year ago, the 6.5 CM was ahead by 50%. :D
 
Some folks are using the 162gr 7mm Amax bullet in a 7mm-08 with very good results.
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That's mine...problem is that the 162 Amax was out of production until just about a month ago (and I snatched up ten boxes) and can be found, just still sketchy. The only other real contender is the 168 Berger VLD, very pricey and also difficult to find.

The reason we say ".260 if you handload" is that factory ammo can be difficult to find- especially match ammo; hunting ammo would be more common, and still pricey. If you have handloading equipment, you'll get the ammo tailored to your rifle at half the cost.]

One of my sons shoots a .260, it's a "bughole" rifle with 140 Amax's. As partial as I am to the 7mm, I would go with the 6.5 due to better availability of components. JMO...
 
I think this weekend I am going to drive around to all the gunshops and just see what ammo they have in stock etc... while I can order online I would like to know I can run to a gun store and get some ammo in a pinch.

The three rounds I really love are the .260 Remington, .308 Winchester and the .300 Winchester Magnum.

The .260 is winning so far just because it just such tiny recoil while having better distance then the 308.

The 308 is nice just because well 308....

And the 300 magnum is decently priced online and has great ballistics but the kick of a magnum is probably to much for me right now will not get that one unless I find one to shoot so I know how it feels.

Thx again guys :)
 
MarkCO,

Thanks for the updated info on the .260; seems a lot has changes since I last looked. It's good to hear Remington is finally starting to support their own cartridge. Maybe one day they're even start chambering precision rifles for it. :)

Lopti,

Consider taking a basic precision rifle class before purchasing. Take the course with one of their rifles and after that you will have a better understanding for your equipment purchase.
 
The .260 Remington is not popular in long range matches. It puts bullets out about 300 fps slower than the 6.5x.284 which is popular, winning and record setting in long range matches. No way will a .260's bullets equal or better the wind bucking that 30 caliber magnums have. Top competitors tried it in 1000 yard matches when it was popular at ranges of 600 yards or less. The big 30's outperformed it. So they used the 6.5x.284 instead as its lesser recoil made it easier to shoot accurately with equal wind bucking of the 30 caliber magnums.

If the .260 Rem is really good at long range, why isn't it listed in 6mmbr/accurateshooter web sites as a popular cartridge with load data to support it?

One other thing about learning to shoot well at long range. The less accurate your hardware is you start out with, the longer it'll take you to develop the skills. If you shoot a round at it strikes 2 MOA up and to the right of where you aimed it, how much of that error is your fault and how much was the fault of the rifle and ammo? Groups on target with good hardware realistically show the shooter's skills. Bad hardware masks the shooter's abilities.

Get good stuff to start with, when you get really good and the barrel's about worn out, it's cheap to replace the barrel.
 
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The .260 is very popular among Precision Rifle shooters and Practical Filed match shooters. Sure, the 6CM and 6XC are what the top guys are shooting now, but most have .260 trainers and most of the guys in the "pack" shoot a .260. Some .243s too. But most of us can't afford to re-barrel 2 or 3 times a year. :D

Different uses Bart.
 
Mark, rebarreling twice a year costs the same as drinking alchoholic beverages or pleasuring oneself often with another human for a year; sometimes less. We all choose what we spend money on; some on both of those, some on one, others on none. According to your comments on the .260, it's used but not competitive in the hands of those using it. So would be a .25-20.

Jimro, you asked if I could explain who did the sniper rifle tests, and when, and in which platform. And show us the difference in performance with group sizes and extreme spreads.

The test was done by several top ranged NRA long range shooters, former Palma team members, excellent military snipers. They all shot bolt action shiper rigged rifles from prone; with and/or without bipods is unknown to me. Targets were silhouettes; about people size. No numbers on accuracy specifics. Just general information from a former USN Rifle Team OIC and SEAL Team commander whom I've known for decades. He was not at liberty to mention specifics, but if you contacted the US Army Marksmanship Unit in Fort Benning, GA, as well as that of the USMC at MCB Quantico, VA, they may shed some light on the subject. I think the US Army picked the .338 Lap Mag because it had the highest energy way down range; first shot accuracy from shoulder fired rifles was not that important to them; obviously.

NRA allows any cartridge up to 35 caliber be used in several long range matches. Nobody uses anything bigger than 30 caliber shooting the best scores.
 
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Lopti,

I'm going to second the advice in posts, 13, 14, and 16. 1) Get a small bore rifle (I'd take it a step beyond .223 and say get a .22, They're super cheap to own and shoot). 2) get lots of trigger time. As far as your fundamental skills go (breathing, relaxation technique, stance, trigger control, etc), there's no difference between a 50 ft smallbore range and a 500 or 1000 yd target. 3) Figure out your eye dominance issues. I've been a right handed, left eyed shooter my whole life and it takes a little work to figure out how to approach things. There are a few ways to overcome the problem, and you need to figure out what you're most comfortable with. Since one of the fixes is to switch to left handed shooting, you want to know if that's the best thing for you before you drop a bunch of money on an expensive rifle.

One more thing, within reason, make your practice match the conditions you intend to shoot in. So, if your LR rifle will have a scope, use a scope on the practice rifle, If you're planning on position shooting, then don't practice from a bench. Ditto for duplicating your rest or sling setup. Etc etc. The idea is that you're training your whole body and not just your eye, finger, or mind. Routine and muscle memory are important parts of effective target shooting, and repetition is how you get them. If you've done pistol target shooting this should be a familiar idea, but it's always worth mentioning again in my opinion.

Good luck
 
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Bart B.,

First off the PSR trials were a SOCOM project, so saying that the Army had final say is a load of bull. I too have friends who were part of that test, and they confirmed that the 300 Win Mag did shoot tighter than the the 338 Lapua Magnum out to 1500 meters. However you need to ask yourself how significant that is, as the 338 Lapua is spec'd to 0.7 MOA at 1000, so even a hypothetical 0.6 MOA performance from the 300 Win Mag is "tighter", but not significant. Going from a seven inch group at 1000 to something smaller doesn't make the target any less "dead."

None of that really matters as the PSR test ended up with the Remington MSR, I don't think you or anyone else can complain too much about not getting a 300 Win Mag variant as it does 308 Win, 300 Win Mag, and 338 Lapua Magnum all from the same chassis. http://blogs.militarytimes.com/gearscout/2013/03/07/socom-psr-awarded-to-remington-msr/?repeat=w3tc

Also, the M82/M107 Barrett 50 BMG cartridge is absolutely horrible for accuracy, yet we use it for what it was intended, an anti-material sniper system. 3 minutes of precision is fine for stopping a technical vehicle. At the time the Army didn't have any ballistic capability between the 300 Win Mag and the 50 BMG other than a few M24A3s in 338 Lapua that SOCOM was using. And yes they were shoulder bruisers.

Your insinuation that the Army doesn't care about first round hits is completely unfounded by any sort of fact, so please stop repeating it as if it is the gospel truth. The fact is that the Army kept the 300 Win Mag in the inventory, added the 338 Lapua Magnum as another option (one that SOCOM previously had in the M24A3).

Also, at the same time the PSR trials were going on (2009 timeframe), the Army (not SOCOM) put forth a contract to adopt the navy Mk248 Mod0 round and retrofit M24s to fire that round, so the 300 Win Mag got even more widespread adoption. https://www.fbo.gov/index?s=opportu...fa29069716b16&tab=core&_cview=0&cck=1&au=&ck=

This corresponded with the adoption of the M110 as a dedicated 308 platform, freeing up M24s to be dedicated 300 Win Mag rifles.

The snipers I know prefer the 300 Win Mag to the 308 Win. But they also prefer the 338 Lapua to the 50 BMG. All four chamberings will remain in the inventory for a long time to come.

Jimro
 
Doh, sorry about that. I'll go edit in order to avoid confusion.

That's what I get for posting in the last few minutes of my lunch break....
 
Ok, kids, lets keep it civil !!!


I have been hearing that due to the cost, and shortages in ammunition some of the sniper teams in the world(not just the US) are using .22LR out to 300 yards. Supposedly the ballistics workouts are close to the 308 at 1000 yards.

Just what I have read....
 
The .308 does well at long range but like it has be mentioned before it goes subsonic in the 1100-1200 yards range.
the long range bug bit me about 10 years ago and i have been in love with it ever since then. Its just an expensive Hobby!! I have a new Savage 110BA .338 Lapua on the way to my FFL as we speak!! The .338 Lapua has an effective range of 1750 yards, but i have seen it work effectively out beyond 2000 yards.

The .260 is a great start but it wont be long and you will start wanting bigger real soon if you really like it!!
 
Bart B.

It works effectively past 2000 yards, at high altitude, shooting at a downhill 45 degree angle ala Craig Harrison's Afghanistan shot.

There isn't a scope on the market that I'm familiar with that can go from 100 to 2000 meters with internal adjustments.

Jimro
 
Corrected to 2707 rounded to 2700 yards

How many sighter's did he shoot at that 2707-yard target to get a zero?

For every yard of calculated range error, there's a 4 inch change in bullet drop.

For every 10 fps change in muzzle velocity, there's a 36 inch change in bullet drop.

For every mph of cross wind error, if the same in the all trajectory bands, there's a 4-foot change in wind drift.

Maximum ordinate is over 155 feet above the line of sight. Wind speed in the upper third of bullet height above LOS is much faster than in the LOS. How much depends on terrain. Does the shooter know the formulas to calculate it accurately? To say nothing about being able to measure wind 60% down range.

Probability of first round hit on that 3+ foot square target's a very small number. After a zero's established, it'll be pretty effective on elephant wounding. . . .as long as conditions don't change and the animal keeps standing broadside to the LOS.
 
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