Lock in Smith and Wesson revolvers

Originally posted by 44AMP
Quote:
the theory that the lock is not necessarily the weak link, and so a lock-equipped gun is no more likely to fail that a gun without the lock.
Theory is a good word, I guess. Although I would amend it to "only slightly more likely to fail". The IL guns have all the parts, and therefore all the likely hood of failure (small though it is) that pre-IL guns do. PLUS they have the lock.

And while there is only a very small number of actual documented failures of the lock (and includes auto activation) it has happened.

Therefore, I wouldn't say "no more likely". The risk with an IL gun may be small, but it is NOT zero.

With a pre-lock gun, the risk of the lock failing is zero!.

This assumes that a pre-lock gun is no more likely to have one of its other components fail than a lock-equipped gun. With the exception of a few Centennial-style J-Frames, all pre-lock guns are now 10+ years old and, unless they are found in LNIB condition, will have 10+ years worth of wear and tear on them.

Also, it must be remembered that S&W has made numerous engineering changes to their revolvers over the years besides the lock. While some of these changes were, admittedly, cost-saving measures (the elimination of the cylinder counterbore on magnums is a prime example) others actually did make the guns better. Depending on the vintage of a particular pre-lock gun, it may not have improvements such as a left-hand threaded ejector rod, cylinder-mounted gas ring, or sliding-type hammer block which would be found on a lock-equipped gun. Likewise, a brand-new S&W revolver will be made of materials that take advantage of 100+ years of advancement in metallurgy while a pre-lock gun, depending on the vintage, may be made of comparatively inferior materials.
 
10+ years of wear on a duty gun that is carried daily and shot seldom is one thing. 10+ years of wear on a match gun shot often in practice and in matches is another thing.

And 10+ years of wear on a gun owned by an average person who fires a few hundred (0r less) rounds per year is, essentially, nothing.

And yes , if you just look at "pre-lock" as your parameter, it does include ALL the S&Ws ever made, prior to the introduction of the lock. And I don't think anyone will argue that a 1920s era S&W is likely to be a bit more worn than a 1980s production gun.

On the other hand, you will have a tough time convincing me that a new production gun is significantly superior to a 1970s production gun. It may be that the improvements are quantifiable, I can even agree with some of it. But in practical terms, not only do I not see a difference, I see the modern guns as actually being lesser "quality", and that is leaving the lock completely out of the picture.

Sure, its just my opinion, but its also my money, and compared to what I was buying 30 years ago from S&W, what they sell today does not impress me as much.
 
I just think the implementation of the lock by S&W was dumb, and they've had many years to rethink this design but chose to keep it.

Rugers have a lock, but you have to remove the grips to access it. Funny how nobody ever complains about the Ruger lock. That's because it's not in a dumb place that ruins the aesthetics.

Also, if a child picks up the locked S&W, it's obvious even to a little kid where the lock is, and that it requires a key. If he picks up the locked Ruger it's not so simple. He's got a gun where none of the controls work, and no obvious way to change that.

To S&W's credit, they have made some Centennial style J-frames without the lock. It does make for a much nicer looking gun. They should at least relocate the lock.

My thoughts exactly. Well said!!
 
The machining, fit and trigger action on the new S&W revolvers is very good. I've owned, seen and handled dozens of new Bangor Punta era Smiths that weren't anywhere as good.

But of course the new ones have that damned lock which, aside from being an unnecessary failure, ugly up the gun and remind us of dark days in the never-ending 2A battle. Now that the wife has one, I'm finally getting some hands-on with one. It has impressed me so far with the attributes mentioned above.
 
Bangor Punta was the beginning of the long decline in S&W. And while they may have overcome some things, the lock just keeps me away.

There are enough pinned & recessed S&Ws to keep me supplied (in fact, this past year, I've sold two), so I'm not really worried about what the new guns are.
 
Originally posted by 44 AMP
10+ years of wear on a duty gun that is carried daily and shot seldom is one thing. 10+ years of wear on a match gun shot often in practice and in matches is another thing.

And 10+ years of wear on a gun owned by an average person who fires a few hundred (0r less) rounds per year is, essentially, nothing.

But unless you personally know all the previous owners of a said gun, you don't really have any way to tell exactly how the gun was used in the last 10+ years. For example, a gun which was fired with a few hundred rounds of .38 Special wadcutters per year would have less strain put on its parts than one fired with the same number of maximum .357 Magnum handloads and thus be at least somewhat more likely to give a future owner issues. However, with only a few hundred rounds fired, it would likely be difficult for the casual observer to tell the difference between the gun fed exclusively target wadcutters and the one fed exclusively magnums.

On the other hand, you will have a tough time convincing me that a new production gun is significantly superior to a 1970s production gun. It may be that the improvements are quantifiable, I can even agree with some of it. But in practical terms, not only do I not see a difference, I see the modern guns as actually being lesser "quality", and that is leaving the lock completely out of the picture.

It depends on the model, vintage, and which improvement we're talking about. For example, prior to 1999, .38 Special J-Frames were not rated for +P ammunition. Current .38 Special J-Frames are, however, rated and warrantied for unlimited use of +P ammunition. That tells me that newer J-Frames are most likely made of superior materials which allow them to be more durable even if fired with higher-pressure ammunition.

Likewise, S&W introduced the Endurance Package to their .44 Magnums in the late 80's. Thus, a M29 or 629 wouldn't have to be all that old, or even P&R, to predate this particular improvement.

Now, I will give you that the majority of design changes that S&W has made to their revolvers in the last 50-60 years have been relatively minor. I would even go so far as to agree that for most of their models used under normal circumstances, the engineering changes are minor enough that a vintage gun probably doesn't have a substantially higher risk of parts breakage or excessive wear than a new one does. Then again, however, you yourself have already admitted that the lock represents only a very small chance of failure.

The way I see it, the small, though non-zero, chance of lock-induced malfunction is offset by the small, though non-zero, chance of malfunctions induced by worn parts or the lack of engineering enhancements on vintage guns. Both of these sets of potential problems are so unlikely that I really don't feel like they're worth my time to worry about and neither has ever stopped me from buying a S&W revolver be it new or vintage.

Sure, its just my opinion, but its also my money, and compared to what I was buying 30 years ago from S&W, what they sell today does not impress me as much.

I would not presume to tell you what to like or buy, so if you like the old ones better, by all means buy those. I will say, however, that I've owned S&W revolvers ranging in dates of production from the early 70's to the present and, while I can certainly see the differences in manufacturing technique between the old and new ones, I cannot see any appreciable difference in the overall quality or functionality of the gun. I will, however, add that because of the increasing scarcity and price of vintage S&W's, I am increasingly reluctant to carry my vintage revolvers. If it were damaged beyond repair or confiscated as evidence, I have the financial means to replace my 4" 629-6 tomorrow if need be, but I may never find another 5" M27-2 even remotely close to the price that I paid for the one I own.
 
I for one am tired of waiting for a prelock. The ones I've been interested online, the sellers want between $800-900 for the gun, plus shipping, and with the $40 transfer fee, I'd be paying close to $1k for the gun...assuming no one out bids me. I work out of state and more than half my salary goes to the commute costs, so by the time I get home, it's too late to turn around and head to a gun shop for any possible prelocks, assuming they don't close first; the shops in my area aren't open long enough for me to do this once I get back home. On my weekends, I actually don't feel like getting up early just to stand in line for an hour before the shop opens at the mad house that's my gun local shop, which looks like a DMV with the lines, in the hope of snagging a prelock they advertise in used guns. Maybe if I were willing to part with my money more easily or didn't mind burning my gas during the week to give it a go....but I am tired.

As much as I'd like a prelock, I have to admit that my 4" 686 with a lock has never failed me. It's also easier on my time and finances to just order new and go with that, at my convenience. I'm sure I'm not the only one that finds looking for a prelock Smith to be a hardship, financially and time wise. Not everyone lives near a gun shop to regularly check the used section, and not everyone has the money to through at something they like online. My semis don't have locks and that's what works for me.

Laura
 
I agree Mastrogiacomo. I dont have the time or energy, to try to hunt up an older firearm, just to pay more for it than a new one, and no warranty on it either. You never know if bubbas done one of his magic fixes on a used gun, unless your a gun smith, and can take it apart before buying it.
 
The reason that the issue won't die is that, quite simply, there a some people who just like to complain about it.
I also say the reason why the issue won't ( and hopefully never will as long as the locks are there) die is that we have an influx of new gun owners that weren't around when the agreement was signed.

They also have no clue about the cities involved in the law suits that helped bring about the agreement.

It may be old news to some, but, judging by the huge number of uninformed comments I see here from newer shooters, the issue is cloudy @ best for them.
 
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Uninformed" or unburdened?
If by unburdened you mean they didn't use the search function first....A bit of both, but, do a search for "lock" here and see what a sea of posts it pulls up & how 90% or more are just people venting their spleen about the lock.
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By most any measure, I collect S&W's and Rugers. I could go on and on for multiple paragraphs... but I think AMP 44 basically laid out my personal opinion.

This is the camp I'm in. While I was quite bothered at the time, and still today am slightly irked about it, for me, its the combination of its history, and the "in your face" location of the lock itself that causes me the most dislike.

I'm also in the camp that thinks that a lock in a gun is foolish, and requiring one by law or govt fiat is detestable.

I do not worry about the lock and don't object to a gun with a lock (which I won't be using) in a place that's not "in your face". The only one I have which does have a lock is a New Vaquero, and I think, if you are going to put one in the gun, that's the way to do it.

The hole in the sideplate, and the reshaping of the cylinder latch make the IL S&Ws look like crap to me. Just my opinion, but its strong enough that none of my money will be going for one of those guns, as long as I can get one without.

The one additional thing I will say... it frustrates the heck out of me when S&W makes the good marketing decision to "bring back" some of the grand old revolver designs but with modern machining and materials. And then they screw it up with the ILS. Brand new guns which cost a heck of a lot less than the originals. (I'll grant you surface finish isn't as good but they should be good shooting guns.) The ILS is "bad enough" on new designs. I literally don't buy them. But even stodgy old guys realize that time marches on and some improvements are going to happen, whether we think they are improvements or not. But seriously... does it make sense to bring back designs from the glory years and then put a hole in the side?

I should have been the target market for those reissues. I should have bought one example of each of them. I should be shooting them and letting my originals rest in the safe. But I was never even tempted. So if you are the person who makes the marketing decisions at S&W, does that make financial or business sense? Alienate your most loyal and long-time customer base?

OK, I'll shut up now before I get called some name or another!!

Gregg
 
One classic gun they should bring back without the lock...is all of them.

They put a lock on the guns that's ugly, and wreaks of anti gun political appeasement.

The end machining of their pistols is sloppy and nothing like what the company produced 15 years ago.

The finish quality if less than acceptable. A brand new gun sitting under a glass cabinet at a gun store is supposed to draw you to it. It's supposed to talk to your senses, beg to be picked up and handled. When a new product repels you because it's covered in scratches, and makes you take a second glance only because you're wondering is it really brand new or 5 years old and had seen a lot of heavy and uncaring use, it's a problem.

I'm not overly old, just a 43 year old "gun guy". When I was a younger guy in college and/ or fresh out of...gun stores had "the" cabinets. Cabinets where the Smith's and the Colts were stored. You'd walk over and look down in awe at some of the most beautiful pieces of machinery brought to market. Now you look down through the glass and are repulsed...wondering if S&W are made in China. I'll go so far to say it's depressing.

I don't know if the buyers these days just were not into hand guns back when S&W made a nice looking product, don't remember them doing so, or simply don't care. But unless people stop buying them, and force the company to change or close then they'll keep producing crap. They produce the garbage they do now now because people will buy it. Sales are above quality for the company who is clearly not the same one we "older" guys remember and want back.

So, as we look down through the glass and see a poorly made revolver with a big hole drilled in the left side, we just walk away shaking our heads rather than ask to pick it up and hold it, and plop down money to buy it. If S&W is happy with that, I suppose that's their decision. There's NOTHING preventing them from stopping with the locks on all new revolvers. Nothing legal, nothing ethical. This is how little they care about changing for their customer's sake. So now we have ugly revolvers, with a big hole in the side plate, a lock that nobody likes or ever uses, cheesy rubber grips, machining that makes you wonder if their pistols are made in China, all at a premium price that the product has no earthly business demanding.
 
I think a person should actually own a gun with a lock before they are entitled to bitch about it. FYI Rugers have locks too.
 
I think a person should actually own a gun with a lock before they are entitled to bitch about it.
That's certainly your prerogative.
Personally, I don't believe someone should have to part with their hard earned money just to be able to say why they won't buy something.
That's certainly their prerogative also.

I don't think I could ever be talked into eating haggis or testicles.
Does that mean I can't say I think the idea of eating either is gross?
 
I think a person should actually own a gun with a lock before they are entitled to bitch about it.
Do you have to get sprayed by a skunk to know you do not want to pet one?


Rugers have locks too.
Rugers have an unobtrusive lock that doesn't fail and is easily forgotten. The S&W lock is entirely different.
 
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