"Lock Down" or make a run for it?

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That, pardon me, is silly. If you are able to run away from danger, do so. That is not being a "sissy", it is being sensible. An armed person might try to resist to save himself and/or others. But a person who is not armed or has no chance to resist should escape if he can do so. No one needs to stand on a road in the path of a truck and allow himself to be killed in order to prove that he is not a "sissy".

Jim
 
LE/lever action-pump rifles...

I disagree with the LE rifles remarks.
Large or small, a PD or LE agency needs to have the proper weapons, tools & equipment to do the necessary job(s) safely and efficiently.

I read a article in a US gun magazine(geared towards sworn LE & armed professionals) where the writer suggested LE officers carry lever-action rifles because they wouldn't be so "intimidating" :rolleyes:.
In 2013, semi-auto or select fire patrol rifles are what US law enforcement officers & federal agents need most.
 
Yes, definitely be careful of the responding officers. They can indeed be caught up in the stress of the event.
Via Guns.com; an officer endangers bystanders (he just happens to have used an AR):
http://www.guns.com/2013/10/04/town...-putting-innocent-bystanders-line-fire-video/

"The town of Castle Rock, Colorado continues to support the actions of a police officer who opened fire on two burglary suspects as they sped past on an open road, despite the fact that he missed his intended target and hit the vehicle of an innocent bystander."
 
you decide to make a run for it, use the erratic ,serpentine method and refrain from screaming like the sissy you are.
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That, pardon me, is silly. If you are able to run away from danger, do so. That is not being a "sissy", it is being sensible. An armed person might try to resist to save himself and/or others. But a person who is not armed or has no chance to resist should escape if he can do so. No one needs to stand on a road in the path of a truck and allow himself to be killed in order to prove that he is not a "sissy".

Jim
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Very well said, Jim. I would even add that running is often necessary in the event of overwhelming or surprise actions, if not to just get to a position of safety whereby one can regroup and then choose a means or about the actions to fight, or continue on to better positions of safety. Being a bullet sponge isn't usually considered a good fighting tactic.

This country wasn't build on running from anything....period.
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You must have missed those classes in History. Aside from Native and most African Americans, settlement of the Colonies was by a large number of people running away from religious, political, and financial troubles in Europe and Asia.

Aside from that, what this country was founded on isn't really relevant to whether or not some person has walked into your work place and is blasting people, now is it?
 
Here is a picture of the Clackamas Town Center food court. This particular shot doesn't actually do justice to the size of the open space in the center, or of how hard it can be to move through this big space while there are people scrambling around tables and chairs in the middle of it.

Oregon_Mall_Killings_Reo11_r770x495.jpg


I go to this mall on a very regular basis. Missed being in the food court by a coin flip, in fact-- I was eating lunch across town in the Washington Square food court when the shooting went down. The point is, until you connect with a real environment, and insert the context into it, it is very difficult to answer this type of question. "Flight" is the obvious instinctive response, and I think that most people in panic aren't discerning between "run to an exit" or "run to a space they can lock from inside"... they are likely to simply move away from the threat, and "lockdown" vs "exit" are likely to be determined by what they happen to run into while fleeing.
 
DO NOT RUN....

I'll state again from reading a few of the newer posts; do not run in these spree shooter events. I'd suggest you walk quickly or move at a fast pace to leave the area but if you run you could slip, have a injury or in a rush, run the wrong way. :eek:

I was thinking about some of the TFL remarks too & it reminded me to be alert of the common exits, emergency doors & safety features of the places I go to often.
How would you react in a spree shooter or major emergency(fire, bomb, natural disaster, etc).
Many factories & business centers have staging areas or rally points.
Do you know the general layout or exit locations of your workplace/places you shop/travel/etc?
Clyde
 
I'd like to expand on ClydeFrog's remarks about awareness of physical environment by adding that a person should be aware of how those physical elements look when things get dynamic. Specifically, how people in a panic contribute to the picture. Observing video of group movement can be very telling. The "Running of the Bulls" is one type of example.

Personally, I detest traffic. As a byproduct, I make it a point to always sit near the perimeter of a space, preferably near an exit. That's not a "living in fear" thing. I simply prefer not to navigage areas where people with horrible spacial awareness are moving around. Because of this quirk, I find myself habitually evaluating paths, and taking routes (in the car or on foot) that allow for fluid movement and avoiding bottlenecks. I recommend that others do the same, even if it is only ever relevant as a matter of convenience. My lady used to laugh at my insistence on avoiding the middle, but she now realizes how far a little thinking ahead can go toward avoiding irritation.
 
The article above about the Colorado officer attempting to hit a moving target is a good example of what I was saying before. Its difficult to hit a moving target and foolish to try unless you have specific training and practice. Hunters know what I mean. They know how hard it is to shoot a running deer.

So if you have to run out in front of someone with a rifle do it full sprint and know that you have a good chance at survival.
 
I speculate

johnelmore said:
"Lock Down" or make a run for it?
Conventional advice is to "lock down" when faced with an active shooter. Basically you buy time and hope for the police to arrive in time.
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What follows is my speculation, not advice.

When I was a child, we had fire drills at school. One of the things we practiced was to stay together and assemble in designated areas away from the building (usually the parking lot). This got us out of harm's way, sure, but it also allowed for a head count.

I notice a lot of effort during and after recent events has to do with identifying who is and who is not 1) a shooter, 2) missing and 3) dead/wounded.

People who are not moving around are easier to count. The conventional instruction for innocents in the area to stay put until an official arrives to escort them out of harm's way is not for tactics of the individual people, but for the administration of the crime scene. (This is my speculation).

If law enforcement arrives on scene and can count on innocents to stay still, anyone moving is self-identified as a suspect. This may not be entirely true, but it does decrease the odds of an innocent being shot or detained unnecessarily and makes it easier to sort out who to the good guys from the bad.

I recall a scene from the movie, "The Great Escape". The NAZIs, searching for escaped Allied prisoners were on a crowded train platform. They ordered everyone to lay down flat. The uninvolved complied. The one guy who remained upright and running was our escaped allied prisoner, who was immediately shot.

It does help law enforcement if every law-abiding person stays put, complies with orders and complies with instructions.

Sheltering in place may or may not be advantageous to the individual(s) doing the sheltering. But it does give an advantage to the rescuers coming on scene. The additional risk to the individuals may balance out against the aggregate advantage to the general population by making it easier for first responders to control the situation.

I am not selling anything. Just re-posing the question voiced by the original poster, but from the point of view of first responders.

Lost Sheep
 
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you decide to make a run for it, use the erratic ,serpentine method and refrain from screaming like the sissy you are.

This country wasn't build on running from anything....period.
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Running in a serpentine fashion only increases your exposure time, the shortest/quickest path between 2 points is still a straight line, use it, because the shooter might have full auto capability.

This country, BTW, was built mostly on lies and deception, and even the Continental Army used camouflage and hid behind trees from the Red Coats who thought them to be cowards who hid behind trees and ran from the battle field to hide in ambush for tired Red Coats who chased after them. :D

Deceitful, and considered to be cowardliness at the time, but nevertheless effective against Red Coats who weren't smart enough to get out of the way of incoming fire.
 
What would I do?

For me it's simple, and distilled into one word:

ATTACK.

I will take the fight to the shooter. I will locate them, and I will neutralize them by engaging them with precise, aimed fire until the threat stops.

Done.
 
Well, I would caution against some chest-pounding on how you can in a chaotic environment take on multiple opponents with long arms - esp. with your J-frame.

By long arms, I don't mean attacking gorillas or orangs. :D
 
Geez, why didn't anyone else realize how easy this this?
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No one said it was easy. No one said it was going to BE easy.

I'll tell you quite frankly, if it happens and I'm there, I'll probably be shaking in my boots. I will more than likely NOT want to be there.

But I will stay.

15 years of active Federal service gave me the foundation of skills that I need.
15 years as a sworn LEO gives me the imperative to answer the threat.
By law, I can NOT run away. Doesn't mean that I don't want to.
But I will not turn my back and leave the people I am sworn to protect and serve in harm's way. I'm not built like that.
No, it's not an optimum method to engage. I know that. Yes, the shooter will probably have a long gun. I know that too.
But this person will--if they fit the profile of the active shooter--probably NOT have any formal training. I'll be able to spot that.

Training as a police sniper gave me that skill.

And I might end up dead on the ground; I might be maimed or crippled. But you can be sure that the shooter won't be in a position to appreciate it too much.

That's just me. Your mileage may vary.
 
No one said it was easy. No one said it was going to BE easy.

I'll tell you quite frankly, if it happens and I'm there, I'll probably be shaking in my boots. I will more than likely NOT want to be there.

But I will stay.

15 years of active Federal service gave me the foundation of skills that I need.
15 years as a sworn LEO gives me the imperative to answer the threat.
By law, I can NOT run away. Doesn't mean that I don't want to.
But I will not turn my back and leave the people I am sworn to protect and serve in harm's way. I'm not built like that.
No, it's not an optimum method to engage. I know that. Yes, the shooter will probably have a long gun. I know that too.
But this person will--if they fit the profile of the active shooter--probably NOT have any formal training. I'll be able to spot that.

Training as a police sniper gave me that skill.

And I might end up dead on the ground; I might be maimed or crippled. But you can be sure that the shooter won't be in a position to appreciate it too much.

That's just me. Your mileage may vary.
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I had said earlier I would watch and determine what was happening before running or shooting, etc. Now, if I saw another doing the same, such as you, we'd be the start of a to man defensive force and it would be nice to build on that. Staying calm and enough CCW's in a place like that could sure make it a short story and minor footnote.
 
There's no correct answer. If you have training to evaluate and influence the situation, that's really good. My caution is for less than thoughtful proclamations that you would do X, Y or Z.

A lone schizophrenic shooter or a squad of rehearsed terrorists, with your family, by yourself, etc.

There no correct answer that fits all.
 
The answer is simple "You do whatever keeps you alive". Doing what it takes to stay alive is the hard part, and there is no clear cut answer, but you have to be ready to react when you need to and you have to react quickly and correctly at the moment of truth.

That means practice in doing anything and everything that might be required of you to do to stay alive in a fight. It's a skill set, not a choice as to which is the best do all be all.
 
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