"Lock Down" or make a run for it?

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plus 1 on post 39....

I agree with post #39.
In critical incidents or major events, people of all ages will act in different ways.
I'd add that even if are armed, be alert to any danger signs & avoid being shot by the first responders.
The very first female FBI special agent killed in the line of duty was shot working a bank robbery detail. She left her assigned post & in the chaos, was shot to death by other LE officers.

I would also say that if you flee or escape, you may be detained or interviewed so try to recall as many details or descriptions as you can.
 
Clydefrog said
The very first female FBI special agent killed in the line of duty was shot working a bank robbery detail. She left her assigned post & in the chaos, was shot to death by other LE officers.

Even IF you do everything perfect, your fate in a dynamic active shooter situation may not be yours to chose.
 
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I can imagine a small child panicing or someone under 30. If you are over 30, these situations shouldnt be so hard. There should be no screaming or panicing. If you are the oldest one in the group, you should be the calm head leading the younger ones out of the situation.

Next time you're in a barn full of cattle, let off a string of fire crackers, and see how easy it is to lead the cattle out of the situation.

It'd be about the same if it were a bunch of people, and someone started shooting at them.

Just a few people not so bad, but if it's a lot of people, you'll trampled.
 
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author Brad Thor, LTC David Grosman US Army retired.....

In a recent novel, author Brad Thor quotes Lt Col David Grossman, author of On Killing & On Combat.
LTC Grossman, a retired US Army officer with a PhD said; People have 2 speeds in crowds; walk and STAMPEDE!

Clyde
 
I was bored standing in line at tractor supply getting some new work pants the other day and saw Self Defense Magazine sitting on the counter, never had heard of it before so I scooped it up. They had a nice article on what to do in an active shooter situation. Similar to "Run, Hide, Fight" but tweaked, they call it "Get out, Lock out, Knock out" kind of cheesy but it got the point across.

First order of business is escape and aid other to do the same if possible. If option one fails you should attempt to barricade yourself in a room as opposed to just hiding in it. Using a belt to tie the arm on a hydraulic door was a nifty truck I never would have thought of. The idea is that an active shooter has one goal: create as many casualties as possible before the good guys arrive and he won't waste time trying to break into a fortified area unless he's after a specific person. Knock out is self explanatory, use a gun if you have one. If not use weapons of opportunity, fire extinguishers, laptops, chairs, etc and use numbers. Simply throwing an object(s) at a shooter can throw off his aim long enough for you and others to dogpile him.
 
All those attack at the entry door with the fire extinguisher and dogpile suggestions assume a shooter who has no sense of how to enter a room or pick a high density target that has minimized these defensive tactics.

My rant is that they are put forward as alternatives to carry.

Not that if you are stuck you shouldn't try but the suggestion that such negate armed defense annoys me.
 
The one time I heard a gunshot in a building (not a firing range) was at a gun show. Accidental discharge - guy got shot in the foot. Several interesting things: 1) no one ran; 2) no one took cover; 3) It was easy to determine the general direction of the gun shot; 4) EVERYONE froze; 5) You've never heard a gun show so utterly silent for about 10 seconds.
 
Same deal here, Skans, but nobody was injured. Big open rooms are easier to get an idea of sound orientation than a building with lots of hallways that interconnect like many schools, plants, or office buildings.

That nobody reacted is fairly typical. Nothing like being at a gun show full of tacticool condition yellow 24/7 types and watch them all stand around like idiots waiting to be the next person shot. Of course, I felt like an idiot because I was hunkered down when nobody else was. My buddy said to me, "What, you thought you might get shot?"

Several things go on with this sort of mentality. There is the initial confusion and processing of what went on and what should be done. 10 seconds is a long time. I would say it was closer to 15 where I was and nobody responded until security entered the hall and made their way toward the event.

So people stood around like zombies, waiting to see what would happen next, or maybe they didn't understand. Either way, they engaged in the same sort of behavior reported time and again at these events where people express initial confusion or outright disbelief that anything bad could be happening. They are more apt to assume that the noise or noises was something not dangerous than something dangerous.

While I could tell direction, I had no idea of distance. People pointed toward two different corners, which I found interesting. I think that had to do with the fact of the echo of the report that they heard. Both corners were on the same end of the building, but depending on where you were, the direction of the shot seemed to vary.

Apparently, if you hear one shot, there is no reason to be concerned because another one is not likely to follow. That is what was explained to me by one of the vendors. I thought this was great. You know some idiot just discharged a gun, but you don't know with the first shot if it was accidental or intentional, and so you wait to decided on seeking safety only after reverifying the threat which occurs with multiple shots. Apparently, nobody wants to be the first to run if it turns out the discharge wasn't intentional.

So people will stand still and quiet for an extended period of time, like perfect targets...

Yeah, I thought I might get shot. Shots are not supposed to ring out at gun shows.
 
That nobody reacted is fairly typical. Nothing like being at a gun show full of tacticool condition yellow 24/7 types and watch them all stand around like idiots waiting to be the next person shot. Of course, I felt like an idiot because I was hunkered down when nobody else was. My buddy said to me, "What, you thought you might get shot?"


So true!:D:D:D
 
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That nobody reacted is fairly typical. Nothing like being at a gun show full of tacticool condition yellow 24/7 types and watch them all stand around like idiots waiting to be the next person shot. Of course, I felt like an idiot because I was hunkered down when nobody else was. My buddy said to me, "What, you thought you might get shot?"

So true!

It *might be* that gun show guys have heard it before, many in combat.
 
It *might be* that gun show guys have heard it before, many in combat.

So they know bullets can't hurt them or that they are otherwise safe? Not believing it. Besides, it is rather funny how the people who don't react out of ignorance and lack of understanding would be just like the people who don't react out of combat experience.

Of course, there were combat veterans at Fort Hood who thought the event was "just a drill" before realizing it was reality.
 
WA area spree shooter; large mall...

Id add that a spree shooting at a large mall in the US northwest(WA/OR), a few years ago had several CCW/armed citizens in the crowd but they reportedly told the first responders & local media that they thought the guns were toys or "airsoft" weapons. The few CCers also said the gun shots sounded like props or blanks at first. :eek:

Clyde
PS; Having a CCW license is a lot like the joke I heard from 80s era stand up comic: "I couldn't see working in a 7-11 in Alaska. Everyone who walks in is wearing a ski-mask!"
 
Yep, the guy that stopped Sylvia Seegrist (1985) by grabbing her rifle thought it was a Halloween prank and he didn't think it was funny. He didn't know it was a real gun and that she was really killing people.
http://news.google.com/newspapers?n...e4aAAAAIBAJ&sjid=W0cEAAAAIBAJ&pg=6635,6773402

People thinking the shots were firecrackers...
http://news.google.com/newspapers?n...-O4lAAAAIBAJ&sjid=K_MFAAAAIBAJ&pg=994,1229123
http://newsok.com/three-killed-in-o...ld-on-three-murder-complaints/article/1924230
http://www.msnewsnow.com/story/1729...atesville-ms-leaves-2-dead-and-3-hospitalized

If there is going to be confusion of concern for the participants, then that confusion almost always is with the intended and potential victims. The killer(s) knows why s/he is there, what the goal is, and what tools are being used to accomplish said goal. Most know to expect the resistance at some point and often have plans for it. The overall "plans" may not be great or well thought out, but they have a lot more of an idea of what is going to go on than anyone else there when the shooting starts.
 
I have to say, when I heard that shot go off at a gun show, I intuitively "knew" what had happened. Now, granted, my intuition could have been proven wrong. But, the dead silence which followed that one gunshot (now noise of any struggle) was a giveaway.

I've probably attended over 60 gun shows and this is the only time I ever heard a gunshot.
 
You need to consider the issue from the viewpoint of the police who might be on the scene. If you run away from the shooter and run right toward a dozen nervous and trigger-happy police armed with full auto weapons, are you sure they will recognize you as the good guy? Especially if you have a gun in your hand?

At Newtown, I counted at least 40 police officers armed with AR-15/M16 rifles, all probably selective fire. I have to wonder how many of those had any real training in the use of those rifles or if they would have just gone to "spray and pray" if they saw someone they thought was the killer.

Jim
 
Its a nonsensical question. It depends on the situation and whether there are potential escape routes, are the others, mobility and visibility.

If I am in a mall near an exit and some nut opens up on the other side of the mall-time to bail.

If I am at my x and someone opens up a drive by next door (actually occured) I'm dropping to the ground and waiting for them to burn urbber out of there.


My personal prediliction is to get the BLEEP out of there, but my physical condition-and that of those important to me- is such that I can do that.
 
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LE training, rifles....

I can't speak for every sworn LE agency in CONUS, but I would say most police departments & federal agents would include firearms training with any rifle/SMG contract.
The large sheriffs office in my metro area issues the select fire HK UMP .45acp to the SWAT & special deputies.
The "road" deputies & some detectives get semi auto M4s in 5.56mm from Colt or Bushmaster.
After a high profile news event in 2011, one local newspaper ran a photo of a corrections deputy carrying a "AK45". :rolleyes:
I also read a recent gun press article that reported how the Florida Highway Patrol would authorize troopers to carry their own patrol rifles or M4s, if they were purchased with private funds. As budgets & training schedule issues become more common, private ownership might be widely used by law enforcement.
 
Whether the guns are issue or privately owned, I am alarmed by the huge increase in auto weapons in the hands of local police officers. If semi-auto rifles "belong on the battlefield, not on our streets", why does the "Sheriff of Mayberry" need hundreds of full auto rifles and sub guns. What kind of crime wave is envisioned that would require the firing of thousands of rounds by Barney Fife? It seems to me that in most cases, police agencies buy that hardware simply because they can and want to play with it.

And I know that few officers can use a FA rifle or sub gun even if for some reason it were needed; I shudder at the idea of a situation where a kid is reported with a gun-shaped pastry and dozens of police open up with AR's, killing hundreds of innocent people.

Jim
 
James K said:
If semi-auto rifles "belong on the battlefield, not on our streets", why does the "Sheriff of Mayberry" need hundreds of full auto rifles and sub guns. What kind of crime wave is envisioned that would require the firing of thousands of rounds by Barney Fife? It seems to me that in most cases, police agencies buy that hardware simply because they can and want to play with it.

One reason is they can be free, courtesy of a (IMHO questionable) Federal program called 1033. "Surplus" military gear is made available to state and local jurisdictions. Some of is is or virtually brand new. About the only thing I haven't seen made available is large ships and nuclear weapons.

So a select fire M-16 / 4 is about $1-2K cheaper than an AR15.
 
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IF......

you decide to make a run for it, use the erratic ,serpentine method and refrain from screaming like the sissy you are.

This country wasn't build on running from anything....period.
 
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