load development question, need some advice.
- Thread starter Shadow9mm
- Start date
I know I am going to regret getting into this but the optical chrono is actually easier to get accurate and reliable readings from than the Labradar. But don't take my word for it
first watch this video from beginning to end
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6PdWZMJ5Jnw
then read this
https://precisionrifleblog.com/2012...ctical-tips-to-increase-accuracy-reliability/
use a tape measure to set up the chrono at the same distance every trip
and get a laser boresighter
https://www.pewpewtactical.com/best-laser-bore-sights/
and use it with a piece of paper to align your chrono
then take the 600 - 1000 dollars you would have spent on a Labradar and accessories and put it towards a more accurate rifle
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I have to strongly disagree with you on this.
I am by no means and expert marksman. I am also not a expert at reloading although I have been doing it for a number of years. I don't have high end gear. I understand all of that. But just because I don't have a +2k rig, high end optics, and fancy rests and gear does not mean that I cannot or should not strive for excellence or to improve my abilities in what I am working on and with now. One does not become better by settling or slacking off.
To me all it means is that I need to find better methods to use my gear more effectively and consistently to get the good solid data I am looking for. I have some ideas to get me there.
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No argument from me hounddawg. If someone gave me a Labradar, I'd sell it and get a spare MagnetoSpeed.
Shadow9mm, low SDs can be obtained with a light rifle and no specialized sleds if your fundamentals are solid. My 6.2 pound .338-06, I have single digit SDs. You can get there for sure.
Shadow9mm, low SDs can be obtained with a light rifle and no specialized sleds if your fundamentals are solid. My 6.2 pound .338-06, I have single digit SDs. You can get there for sure.
appreciate it. I am really considering a magnetospeed, but that wont be until later in the year most likely.
My fundamentals are a work in progress, but I am making a solid effort.
Until then I have a couple ideas that I can do with what I have to make things more consistent. I have a caldwell tack driver bag. I am thinking a ratchet strap around the bag to grab the rifle better will help with the weight of the rifle for chronograph testing. I am also thinking about a generic type of stop. something like a dowel rod in a scrap of 2x4 that I can put the muzzle next to as a reference to get it in the same place every time.
I also really like the idea of using a laser bore sighter to line things up. I tried that last year but the bore sighter I got was a piece of junk and broke after 3 outings.
My fundamentals are a work in progress, but I am making a solid effort.
Until then I have a couple ideas that I can do with what I have to make things more consistent. I have a caldwell tack driver bag. I am thinking a ratchet strap around the bag to grab the rifle better will help with the weight of the rifle for chronograph testing. I am also thinking about a generic type of stop. something like a dowel rod in a scrap of 2x4 that I can put the muzzle next to as a reference to get it in the same place every time.
I also really like the idea of using a laser bore sighter to line things up. I tried that last year but the bore sighter I got was a piece of junk and broke after 3 outings.
Agreed that’s why there is only one option , go shoot . Stop spending money , you can’t buy your way to better shooting . I out shoot guys and there $2k rigs all the time with my Ruger American Rifle and $99 scope . That said there’s no way I’d start spending more money on a sled or chrono then the rifle it self . If you want to spend money hoping to shoot better , get a better barrel , trigger or more ammo and go shoot .
As Markco pointed out a guy and a light rifle can shoot single digit SD’s . In fact you did , if that’s what you want you have your load . A sled is useless IMO unless that’s how you plan to shoot the rifle all the time cus all’s it’s going to tell you is how well it shoot in a sled .
Unless you are shooting 500+ yards all the time and looking to place in competitions an SD of 13 is just as good as a SD of 8 .
Again you only have one option IMO
do what what MarkCO said, you can get single digit SD's off a bipod. Learning recoil management is one aspect of process, don't expect it to happen in a week or even a month. A 6 or 7 pound .308 is a lot of rifle to handle but once you get good at managing the recoil on it then a 15 pound 6mm target rifle will be a piece of cake.
Like you said in your earlier post, use that rifle to improve with. Keep expectations reasonable. A off the shelf Mossberg is a great hunting rifle however don't expect benchrest groups with the factory barrel, stock and trigger
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truer words were never spoken, I outshoot guys every match whose scope cost more than my entire rig and I still have a long way to go in my learning process
Like you said in your earlier post, use that rifle to improve with. Keep expectations reasonable. A off the shelf Mossberg is a great hunting rifle however don't expect benchrest groups with the factory barrel, stock and trigger
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truer words were never spoken, I outshoot guys every match whose scope cost more than my entire rig and I still have a long way to go in my learning process
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I'm not expecting benchrest accuracy. Just looking for consist moa or sub moa. The rifle has struggled to do moa even with match ammo so far. My hope is that a hand load tuned to the rifle will get me there.
The trigger is next on my list. I can't stand it. It's light but bad imho. It initially had creep right before the break. I adjusted it down from 2.75 to 2lb. The creep is gone but it has the safety blade like the accu trigger and its heavier than the break. I'm looking at the timney in a 2 or 2.5lb range. My ar has a good 2.5lb trigger and it feels about perfect.
The stock seems ok. The front recoil lug is bedded and the barrel is generously free floated. I have considered bedding the action. I have done it before on a couple other guns with good success.
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I did not expect best SD es at max and it turned out as expected. But I figured max going down was the best place to start.
Interesting on the 7mm mag. Is that with several powders or just one?
getting way off the topic of reloading here. But in my experience doing a bedding job may help, same with trigger replacement. Neither will hurt the accuracy but the barrel is the main limiting factor in the hardware.
At the moment I am waiting on a barrel for a build. Bighorn action, KRG Bravo stock, Triggertech 2 stage trigger etc. While I am waiting on the Shilen I screwed a .308 barrel off a cannibalized Savage 10 onto it. It is impossible to get 1 MOA five shot groups with magazine length ammo.
Velocities have consistent single digit SD's but they group at 1.25 to 1.5 with a COL of 2.800. See pic
I am hoping for better with the Shilen but even then it may have to be single fed if I use it in competition.
quick edit - I am pretty sure it was Uncle Nick that pointed out that when you see a velocity flatten with several tenths of powder difference like this one does between 43.9 and 44.2 it means the case is stretching from pressure. I did not go any higher even though Barnes has 44.6 as their max. I get a lot of reloads from a case before the primer pockets get wrecked following that rule of thumb
At the moment I am waiting on a barrel for a build. Bighorn action, KRG Bravo stock, Triggertech 2 stage trigger etc. While I am waiting on the Shilen I screwed a .308 barrel off a cannibalized Savage 10 onto it. It is impossible to get 1 MOA five shot groups with magazine length ammo.
Velocities have consistent single digit SD's but they group at 1.25 to 1.5 with a COL of 2.800. See pic
I am hoping for better with the Shilen but even then it may have to be single fed if I use it in competition.
quick edit - I am pretty sure it was Uncle Nick that pointed out that when you see a velocity flatten with several tenths of powder difference like this one does between 43.9 and 44.2 it means the case is stretching from pressure. I did not go any higher even though Barnes has 44.6 as their max. I get a lot of reloads from a case before the primer pockets get wrecked following that rule of thumb
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Don Fischer
New member
I didn't see where you mentioned group size anywhere. You a match shooter or a hunter? Then depending on which the only number's that really matter are group size. Chase all the number's you want if the group doesn't work for you, the number's are meaningless!
Gun is about 1.5-2moa with hunting ammo. Close to 1moa with match. I'm primarily a hunter but am wanting to get into match shooting.
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When I get stiff bolt lift, I back off 1%. Stiff bolt lift is real. So, I would call 46.5 gr max for me.
You have pretty good sd’s at 44.9, 45.8, 46.4, 46.7. This is an easy gun to load for. That said, none are really low SD. I would load 3 groups around each of those, 0.1gr +/- and the nominal to confirm it repeats. I might ditch 44.9, just due to velocity and experience. IME, those low end loads are not usually best performers.
Your final group size will come from adjusting seating depth.
Meh....some of the best groups in the world are shot off pedestal rest with FR & rr bags. I’m guessing your rest is ok for now, unless there is something obvious to you the shooter. As an aside, “lead sled” and “clamping down” are this that generally create poor accuracy.
If you need to measure sd’s under 10, you probably do need a Labradar, but this is not a requirement for most load development. Honestly, the best part of a Labradar is it cuts setup to seconds and easily gets readings in most conditions. It has settings to narrow that down.
My sales pitch for Labradar. First, with most normal guns...like you have, it is easy to setup. It measures quite precisely and consistently. It works with pistols. It does not affect poi.
The poi part is critical. If you want to compare today’s loads with yesterday’s, you can’t have different poi for each load! It is also nice to measure every load shot over the chrony including sight in, etc. The only competitor to the Labradar is the Magnetospeed. It connects to the barrel or a picatinney rail if your gun can do that. It’s selling point seems to be price, but to get past the poi issue, you need mounts and maybe rifle changes. Talk to a Magnetospeed user for details. I only use the Labradar. If you want to try mine, I can set you up on it in 3 min to try, but you have to drive to my range!
People complain about accessories. I have an old pistol case to hold it all, $10 90deg usb plug off Amazon, old cell phone charger battery and $40 into a table top tripod. Yep $50. I had more into my Shooting Chrony. The unit is not cheap, but I’m glad they didn’t include their $100 tripod, $25 battery, $50 case, $$ triggers for guns I don’t own, some sight and who knows what else.
It has cons also. On a crowded range, it needs to be closer to your and may need mic turned down. With suppressors, it may need a different trigger. People sell them.
Metal god said:
I love this answer....as true as it is, it can be false too. That said, a guy who shoots his Ruger American and $99 optic weekly, would scare guys who shoot under 10 times a year!
New rifles are often just that good. Often times $99 scopes are ok....as long as both are proven and you have a decent load.
Shadow9mm said:
How is factory ammo shooting? If it is typically 2”, I think your rest and fundamentals need looked into. Factory rifles with factory match ammo are 1moa or better, generally. A well tuned could get you down to 0.75”-1”.....which is fine as long as sd is 10ish.
All that said, some factory rifles are 1.5 moa at best. I have not seen one, but hear/read this regularly.
It's 1.5 to 2 with hunting ammo. Just over 1moa with factory match. That's between me and my buddy shooting. We can both shoot 3/4 moa regularly with his tc compass and hunting ammo. Hoping a dialed in load will get the gun shooting. Neither of like the trigger on the patriot. That's and bedding the stock are tge next upgrades.
Just my opinion here but I bet you will never be happy with that Mossberg unless you change out the barrel.
If you are serious about getting in target shooting I would save the money and buy something you can find a prefit barrel for and learn to swap them out. It ain't rocket science. Savage, Ruger, Tikka etc. You can find a Savage 10 action with accutrigger new are can be had for less than 500, Boyds stock 200, prefit barrel 400. Assorted tools like GO gage and barrel wrench etc another 100. Then shoot that barrel out and you can replace it for another 400.
The alternative is buy a stock Tikka then get a prefit replacement when that barrel foes south. Stock Tikkas are tackdrivers from the factory.
Your money and you decision though, good luck
If you are serious about getting in target shooting I would save the money and buy something you can find a prefit barrel for and learn to swap them out. It ain't rocket science. Savage, Ruger, Tikka etc. You can find a Savage 10 action with accutrigger new are can be had for less than 500, Boyds stock 200, prefit barrel 400. Assorted tools like GO gage and barrel wrench etc another 100. Then shoot that barrel out and you can replace it for another 400.
The alternative is buy a stock Tikka then get a prefit replacement when that barrel foes south. Stock Tikkas are tackdrivers from the factory.
Your money and you decision though, good luck
The thing is I am already happy with the rifle. I understand what I bought, and while it is not performing quite as well as I had hoped, it is not too far off and it is within a reasonable range for what it is.
I think going straight to a barrel swap is a pretty drastic step especially when I can't even say it is the barrel for sure yet.
For now My plans are as follows. if they do not work, it is what it is, and its fine until the barrels worn out.
Bed the stock. I have bed stocks before. its a reasonably cheap and easy process and should make thing better even if its not a huge improvement. Got a kit on the way.
Finish working up and tuning my load. Mag length loads have a LOT of jump and it may be a seating node issue. Need finish my powder workup so I can start on seating depth testing.
Replace the trigger. I hate the trigger on the gun. I have shot more than a few guns with the savage accu-trigger style triggers. this one is just not good. Going to be dropping one in a about a month.
If these things don't get it fixed I am still not swapping the barrel, at least not until its worn out. Even if its not the best barrel I can't justify just pulling it. It only has 200rnds through it, it has a lot of life left, even if its a 1.5moa barrel. But I will understand the limitations of the rifle, and it will still be a good hunter and give me practice working on my wind holds, range estimation, and dialing in drop. after I get proficient with that and the barrel has around 2k rounds down range, I will be looking at a new barrel or gun. no use learning an a match barrel, this one will do fine for now, and let me learn a lot at the same time.
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