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Lights-out-left-handed-1911-press-test?
- Thread starter Mendocino
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.VictorLouis
New member
Does anyone have a problem with putting one of their fingers precariously close to the muzzle while doing a "classic" press check!? NAD & skdtac seem to be on-the money.
In self defense LESS is better. Adding to the menu you need to use to get the job done, putting ANOTHER item on it won't do you much good. The "training" community has been in a mad rush to pack on as many buzzwords and cliches as they can to make it sound like they know what they are doing. Shooting someone isn't that complicated and if you want to plan for every potential hazard or problem you should buy kevlar underwear and never get out of bed.
Pluspinc,
I notice that in the video on your website, the cop in the bank shootout had ZERO time to clear the weapon malfunction and definitely no time for a press check.
I guess one had better make darn sure that their weapon of choice is reliable, and that it is chamber loaded when it is strapped on in the morning.
I notice that in the video on your website, the cop in the bank shootout had ZERO time to clear the weapon malfunction and definitely no time for a press check.
I guess one had better make darn sure that their weapon of choice is reliable, and that it is chamber loaded when it is strapped on in the morning.
Nobody. That is typical and sure shoots holes in the gun rag logic that floats around. Keep in mind the guy he shot was hit in the heart and still fired back at him, fought with him and ran off and died in the parking lot. It was a pristine hit for the officer which is amazing. I also love the position he shoots from. Classic weaver eh?
We will put up more real videos of shootings. One thing they all have in common. Reality and the gun rag theories don't come together.
Life isn't so organized nor fair.
When I hear of stuff like "press-check" etc., I think of the days when we were 14 talking to each other about our attempts at sex for the first time and how we would do it. Seems we forgot the girls had "plans" also and they didn't agree with ours.
Self-defense is like that. Heck, we even assume we will get our gun out. That alone is being a real optimist based on the facts as we know them.
When I figured out the bad guys had a plan that didn't agree with mine I started to find out what their plans were and I didn't like it. It stopped being a fun subject of interest.
Amazing how so called training programs leave out the bad guys side of things.
I had a convicted cop killer in an interview and couldn't help but ask, " how does a person like yourself kill a highly trained police officer." It was a fair question.
I'm surprised more "experts" haven't asked that question of such types. They would soon learn their fancy stances, flash sight pictures, crush grips, and speed rocks are sadly very silly in the real world.
All one has to do is see the score so far.
Cops hit rate 21 feet or less 8%
(88% will not particpate but will die with their gun IN the holster)
Thugs hit rate against cops- 91%
100% of those interviewed said they did not look at the sights on the guns when killing the cops.
________________
Does that sound like a fight you want to get into? Interesting how the bad guys do that well. Me thinks the skills-graces- and methodology the thugs use needs some looking into. The performance level is sure an endorsement for whatever it is. Me also thinks you won't find a "press-check" in the bunch.
------------------
Specialists in the use and training of lethal force.
We will put up more real videos of shootings. One thing they all have in common. Reality and the gun rag theories don't come together.
Life isn't so organized nor fair.
When I hear of stuff like "press-check" etc., I think of the days when we were 14 talking to each other about our attempts at sex for the first time and how we would do it. Seems we forgot the girls had "plans" also and they didn't agree with ours.
Self-defense is like that. Heck, we even assume we will get our gun out. That alone is being a real optimist based on the facts as we know them.
When I figured out the bad guys had a plan that didn't agree with mine I started to find out what their plans were and I didn't like it. It stopped being a fun subject of interest.
Amazing how so called training programs leave out the bad guys side of things.
I had a convicted cop killer in an interview and couldn't help but ask, " how does a person like yourself kill a highly trained police officer." It was a fair question.
I'm surprised more "experts" haven't asked that question of such types. They would soon learn their fancy stances, flash sight pictures, crush grips, and speed rocks are sadly very silly in the real world.
All one has to do is see the score so far.
Cops hit rate 21 feet or less 8%
(88% will not particpate but will die with their gun IN the holster)
Thugs hit rate against cops- 91%
100% of those interviewed said they did not look at the sights on the guns when killing the cops.
________________
Does that sound like a fight you want to get into? Interesting how the bad guys do that well. Me thinks the skills-graces- and methodology the thugs use needs some looking into. The performance level is sure an endorsement for whatever it is. Me also thinks you won't find a "press-check" in the bunch.
------------------
Specialists in the use and training of lethal force.
Gee Pluspinc, I’m so glad that we, the unanointed, have the honor of your imperious presence. You might try a bit of sugar and humility with that vinegar. Please keep in mind that there are many people here with a GREAT deal of experience in the real world and the training environment. The purpose of the exercise is discussion in a civil manner. In my opinion, comparing shared opinions to hormone driven adolecsent fantasies is unproductive .
Rich Lucibella
Staff
FWIW-
When trainers, of the caliber that I mentioned, who have been there and done that, are confused with gun rag writers by self appointed experts who need handles to obscure their own "bona fides", I know we've entered a new plane of reality.
When the obvious fact that no one has advocated a press check in the midst of a gun battle is ignored so that others might try to score some weak debating point, in light of an otherwise indefensible position, I suspect something in the water.
And when people have to point up one anecdotal story to support their own "manual of arms" I'm reminded of a typical CNN interview.
OK, so no one wanted to answer my quiz. Let's do it this way: For those who argue with the training, background and experience of guys like Jeff Cooper, Harry Humphries, Clint Smith, Walt Marshall and others...where did you do your defensive pistol training and did it eschew the value of learning how to press check a weapon...day or night?
Rich Lucibella
When trainers, of the caliber that I mentioned, who have been there and done that, are confused with gun rag writers by self appointed experts who need handles to obscure their own "bona fides", I know we've entered a new plane of reality.
When the obvious fact that no one has advocated a press check in the midst of a gun battle is ignored so that others might try to score some weak debating point, in light of an otherwise indefensible position, I suspect something in the water.
And when people have to point up one anecdotal story to support their own "manual of arms" I'm reminded of a typical CNN interview.
OK, so no one wanted to answer my quiz. Let's do it this way: For those who argue with the training, background and experience of guys like Jeff Cooper, Harry Humphries, Clint Smith, Walt Marshall and others...where did you do your defensive pistol training and did it eschew the value of learning how to press check a weapon...day or night?
Rich Lucibella
Rosco Benson
New member
Plus P Darrell,
Regarding your technique post earlier in this thread; while I do not agree with the point-shooting technique you suggest, I applaud the fact that you are finally offering posts with substantial information on what you view as the proper technique. Bravo! This sure beats the "har, har, you won't use no stance when the bullets are a'flyin" sort of stuff that you were posting previously.
Since I've voiced criticism of your posts for being all bluster and no substance previously, I must commend you for putting some steak with the sizzle. I hope you continue in this vein.
Rosco
Regarding your technique post earlier in this thread; while I do not agree with the point-shooting technique you suggest, I applaud the fact that you are finally offering posts with substantial information on what you view as the proper technique. Bravo! This sure beats the "har, har, you won't use no stance when the bullets are a'flyin" sort of stuff that you were posting previously.
Since I've voiced criticism of your posts for being all bluster and no substance previously, I must commend you for putting some steak with the sizzle. I hope you continue in this vein.
Rosco
Press checks are not meant to be performed while in the midst of battle.
They can be performed immediately before, during a lull, and immediately after a fight.
Why?
Before: It is human nature to forget many things- chambering a round is one of them. If you are not sure, please do check.
During: There's a lull and it is assumed you are behind cover. This is rare, but should not be discounted. You check because maybe you haven't engaged yet and as in the previous example, you aren't sure about if you chambered. Or, you want to see if after reloading you really did. In high stress situations some mess this seemingly simple task up. I have a friend who consistently reloads, only to find no round in the chamber- how? Beats the hell out of me, but it keeps happening...
After: To make sure you reloaded. Or to make sure your slide stop didn't fail. It is rare, but happens. You'd hate to find out that the fight wasn't over and that your gun was dry.
Type 1 clearance drills are for gun fights in progress- chamber checks are not.
Erik
They can be performed immediately before, during a lull, and immediately after a fight.
Why?
Before: It is human nature to forget many things- chambering a round is one of them. If you are not sure, please do check.
During: There's a lull and it is assumed you are behind cover. This is rare, but should not be discounted. You check because maybe you haven't engaged yet and as in the previous example, you aren't sure about if you chambered. Or, you want to see if after reloading you really did. In high stress situations some mess this seemingly simple task up. I have a friend who consistently reloads, only to find no round in the chamber- how? Beats the hell out of me, but it keeps happening...
After: To make sure you reloaded. Or to make sure your slide stop didn't fail. It is rare, but happens. You'd hate to find out that the fight wasn't over and that your gun was dry.
Type 1 clearance drills are for gun fights in progress- chamber checks are not.
Erik
For those of you that know the gun in your holster is loaded:
How do you know... did you press check it before you put it there?
After your low light engagement... are you going to:
A) holster the weapon without reloading.
B) reload the weapon but not check the chamber.
C) carry the gun around until you get to better lighting.
D) reload the gun, holster and check the chamber when you get to better lighting.
E) Reload, press check, holster.
It seems to me that even if you are sure the gun in your holster is loaded, there are still times that you might want to be able do a press check in the dark.
How do you know... did you press check it before you put it there?
After your low light engagement... are you going to:
A) holster the weapon without reloading.
B) reload the weapon but not check the chamber.
C) carry the gun around until you get to better lighting.
D) reload the gun, holster and check the chamber when you get to better lighting.
E) Reload, press check, holster.
It seems to me that even if you are sure the gun in your holster is loaded, there are still times that you might want to be able do a press check in the dark.
George Hill
Staff Alumnus
Well, pluspinc can at least put together a cool web page.
I note that nobody has mentioned the tradeoff of possibly causing a hangup due to the press check (i.e. partially extracting a round that was in full battery and not returning the gun to full battery).
secondly, in full adrenaline mode (assuming you believe in that kind of thing), you may not be able to tell the difference between loaded and unloaded condition from a Glock's extractor.
I guess what I'm taking away from this discussion is that if danger is imminent I ain't screwing with the slide until I want to reload, and I'll only press check in a lighted area under no stress.
I'll give my own inept answer for Rich's "case 1";
- bump-in-the-night
- grasp weapon
- tap mag base
- rack slide to chamber round
- fire if needed (which will be a very short interval; my domicile ain't no friggin castle)
in my not very humble opinion, we home defenders are at a disadvantage since we are off-guard, sleepy or tired, and reacting as opposed to acting. doesn't sound sensible to be doing fine motor skill activities with danger imminent.
I would think the patrolman should presscheck in the locker room before holstering. if I were a bad guy planning on ambush, I'd love for my victim to have his hands and eyes focused on the tool instead of maintaining the scan.
secondly, in full adrenaline mode (assuming you believe in that kind of thing), you may not be able to tell the difference between loaded and unloaded condition from a Glock's extractor.
I guess what I'm taking away from this discussion is that if danger is imminent I ain't screwing with the slide until I want to reload, and I'll only press check in a lighted area under no stress.
I'll give my own inept answer for Rich's "case 1";
- bump-in-the-night
- grasp weapon
- tap mag base
- rack slide to chamber round
- fire if needed (which will be a very short interval; my domicile ain't no friggin castle)
in my not very humble opinion, we home defenders are at a disadvantage since we are off-guard, sleepy or tired, and reacting as opposed to acting. doesn't sound sensible to be doing fine motor skill activities with danger imminent.
I would think the patrolman should presscheck in the locker room before holstering. if I were a bad guy planning on ambush, I'd love for my victim to have his hands and eyes focused on the tool instead of maintaining the scan.
Press checks are not meant to be performed while in the midst of battle.
They can be performed immediately before, during a lull, and immediately after a fight.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Here is THEE problem. The ASSUMPTION is we will have time to do this. ONLY in the movies folks. Before? 88% of cops died with their guns untouched. During a lull? Since when does that happen. Most are 3 seconds or less.
AFTER? I have been THERE. AFTER I am not the least bit concerned about my gun. I'm worried about my future, legal problems and my family.
As for "experience" I have done it more than once but in the gun world that is seen as a sign of bragging or stupidty. But I can't change my past.
It is easier to be an expert by having only a good theory with plenty of buzzwords and cliches to sound like we know something.
I learned from experience on the street, getting hurt (shot and stabbed) and spending hours talking with those that try to kill us. They don't write articles, pimp bullets or guns. They KILL us. With great success they blow through our antiquated training that has little application on the street and do what they want with us when they make the decision to do so.
A lot more time needs to be addressed as to what the thugs do, not what we MIGHT or want to do.
Street encounters are not ogranized well thought out formal events. Wish that was the case. Even Jeff Cooper couldn't gag it down anymore and got away from the entire IPSC biz if you recall because it flew off into lah-lah land.That included his school concepts. Today he talks about hunting and Scout rifles. He got burned once to often.
I can relate. To many good "theories" floating around.
The main problem most instructors have is they think students will excell to their level or hold to thier own personal logic.
It is difficult to find students that want anything more than the bare MINIMUM to get a carry permit or keep a job. That is the "average" shooter.
Many don't want that much, and those that are INTO shooting mostly become jitterbugs with one fad or trendy idea after another with a box full of holsters and goodies that come and go from favor.
Then you find those that have "done it." They simply melt into the background of it all as they are seldom encouraged to discuss thier circumstances as they won't agree with the fashion crowd on such issues. Even Bill Jordan found that out in the 1980's.
They can be performed immediately before, during a lull, and immediately after a fight.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Here is THEE problem. The ASSUMPTION is we will have time to do this. ONLY in the movies folks. Before? 88% of cops died with their guns untouched. During a lull? Since when does that happen. Most are 3 seconds or less.
AFTER? I have been THERE. AFTER I am not the least bit concerned about my gun. I'm worried about my future, legal problems and my family.
As for "experience" I have done it more than once but in the gun world that is seen as a sign of bragging or stupidty. But I can't change my past.
It is easier to be an expert by having only a good theory with plenty of buzzwords and cliches to sound like we know something.
I learned from experience on the street, getting hurt (shot and stabbed) and spending hours talking with those that try to kill us. They don't write articles, pimp bullets or guns. They KILL us. With great success they blow through our antiquated training that has little application on the street and do what they want with us when they make the decision to do so.
A lot more time needs to be addressed as to what the thugs do, not what we MIGHT or want to do.
Street encounters are not ogranized well thought out formal events. Wish that was the case. Even Jeff Cooper couldn't gag it down anymore and got away from the entire IPSC biz if you recall because it flew off into lah-lah land.That included his school concepts. Today he talks about hunting and Scout rifles. He got burned once to often.
I can relate. To many good "theories" floating around.
The main problem most instructors have is they think students will excell to their level or hold to thier own personal logic.
It is difficult to find students that want anything more than the bare MINIMUM to get a carry permit or keep a job. That is the "average" shooter.
Many don't want that much, and those that are INTO shooting mostly become jitterbugs with one fad or trendy idea after another with a box full of holsters and goodies that come and go from favor.
Then you find those that have "done it." They simply melt into the background of it all as they are seldom encouraged to discuss thier circumstances as they won't agree with the fashion crowd on such issues. Even Bill Jordan found that out in the 1980's.
Rich Lucibella
Staff
Darrell-
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Even Jeff Cooper couldn't gag it down anymore and got away from the entire IPSC biz if you recall because it flew off into lah-lah land.That included his school concepts. Today he talks about hunting and Scout rifles. He got burned once to often. [/quote]
If this is an example of the depth of your research, we haven't much to discuss. Jeff Cooper is teaching a series of Defensive Handgun courses this year...at age eighty. We argue for a press check, when there's time and when it's appropriate. You argue that there's never time. And then you give one or two examples to show there's never time.
You reference the trainers mentioned in this thread as rag writers; old guys hanging onto outdated concepts; guys trying to sell bullets and the like. Not meaning to flame, but let's get the record straight. <UL TYPE=SQUARE> <LI>Your background is as a part time DJ and part time cop.
<LI>You run a firearms training business.
<LI>You boast a training staff of 2 including yourself.
<LI>You offer a 1 day advanced handgun course which includes teaching such valuable concepts as handgun shooting out to 100 yards.
<LI>You offer a defensive shotgun course in 2 hours. </UL>
A 1 day "Advanced Handgun class! Why am I not surprised that you don't teach a press check? There's only so many hours in....1 day.
So tell me again...who's sellin' what?
Rich Lucibella
[This message has been edited by Rich Lucibella (edited February 11, 2000).]
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Even Jeff Cooper couldn't gag it down anymore and got away from the entire IPSC biz if you recall because it flew off into lah-lah land.That included his school concepts. Today he talks about hunting and Scout rifles. He got burned once to often. [/quote]
If this is an example of the depth of your research, we haven't much to discuss. Jeff Cooper is teaching a series of Defensive Handgun courses this year...at age eighty. We argue for a press check, when there's time and when it's appropriate. You argue that there's never time. And then you give one or two examples to show there's never time.
You reference the trainers mentioned in this thread as rag writers; old guys hanging onto outdated concepts; guys trying to sell bullets and the like. Not meaning to flame, but let's get the record straight. <UL TYPE=SQUARE> <LI>Your background is as a part time DJ and part time cop.
<LI>You run a firearms training business.
<LI>You boast a training staff of 2 including yourself.
<LI>You offer a 1 day advanced handgun course which includes teaching such valuable concepts as handgun shooting out to 100 yards.
<LI>You offer a defensive shotgun course in 2 hours. </UL>
A 1 day "Advanced Handgun class! Why am I not surprised that you don't teach a press check? There's only so many hours in....1 day.
So tell me again...who's sellin' what?
Rich Lucibella
[This message has been edited by Rich Lucibella (edited February 11, 2000).]
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by pluspinc:
The main problem most instructors have is they think students will <snip> hold to thier own personal logic.[/quote]
Self included... Yes!?
------------------
Schmit
GySgt, USMC(Ret)
NRA Life, Lodge 1201-UOSSS
"Si vis Pacem Para Bellum"
The main problem most instructors have is they think students will <snip> hold to thier own personal logic.[/quote]
Self included... Yes!?
------------------
Schmit
GySgt, USMC(Ret)
NRA Life, Lodge 1201-UOSSS
"Si vis Pacem Para Bellum"
If this is an example of the depth of your research, we haven't much to discuss. Jeff
Cooper is teaching a series of Defensive Handgun courses this year...at age eighty. We
argue for a press check, when there's time and when it's appropriate. You argue that
there's never time. And then you give one or two examples to show there's never time.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
You said, "when it's appropriate." But fail to say when that is. You ASSUME all kinds of time and warnings. That can be a very FATAL assumption. You or I are not in charge of such things.
Also Cooper is on his own as he should be. He does what he does well on his own. You assume I am not a fan of his. WRONG.
You reference the trainers mentioned in this thread as rag writers; old guys hanging onto
outdated concepts; guys trying to sell bullets and the like. Not meaning to flame, but let's get the record straight.
Your background is as a part time DJ and part time cop. You run a firearms training business.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
No YOU get it straight I was a full time DJ in a major top 15 market AND FULL TIME Chief of Police among other things. I OWN a firearms training business. Keep in mind Ayoob was a jeweler. Nothing wrong with that or being a DJ, I was also a news photographer/reporter with a specialty of covering police/fire activity and that included riots of the 60's. I can send you a firearms related publishing history if you like including dates and publications of hundreds of firearms magazines, two books, and a few others. You left some out. Your research skills are suspect.
You boast a training staff of 2 including yourself.you offer a 1 day advanced handgun course which includes teaching such valuable
concepts as handgun shooting out to 100 yards. You offer a defensive shotgun course in 2 hours.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Two staffers is a problem? Cooper is only one. Funny math. But we have an instructors class in March and will expand into Florida and Texas this year. Bigger is better?
Basic class is one 6 hour day. Advanced is one day, runs from about 4:00 p.m. until about 3:00 a.m. or when they get tired of shooting outdoors in the dark. Its run later. The 100 yard idea I got from Ayoob.
Talk to him. We do it and then take students to 7-10 feet and they see their miss rate skyrocket at such close range which comes as a surprise. The 100 yard thing is just to give them idea of the accuracy of duty weapons at that range. Greater than most thing. More informative than applicable of course.
A 1 day "Advanced Handgun class! Why am I not surprised that you don't teach a press
check? There's only so many hours in....1 day.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Instread of screwing around with nonsense like that we stress shooting in the dark.
Which would you think a person would need most?
So tell me again...who's sellin' what?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
You did a nice promotional job for me. Appreciate it. Is Cooper now doing it for
free? If so I'll do it to remain competative.
BTW, I used to work nights as a cop and go to work from the radio studio. Worked both jobs at once. Guess I'm the first cop to work more than one job. I'll take credit for inventing that concept. Radio is only a 3 hour work day in some cases.
Cooper is teaching a series of Defensive Handgun courses this year...at age eighty. We
argue for a press check, when there's time and when it's appropriate. You argue that
there's never time. And then you give one or two examples to show there's never time.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
You said, "when it's appropriate." But fail to say when that is. You ASSUME all kinds of time and warnings. That can be a very FATAL assumption. You or I are not in charge of such things.
Also Cooper is on his own as he should be. He does what he does well on his own. You assume I am not a fan of his. WRONG.
You reference the trainers mentioned in this thread as rag writers; old guys hanging onto
outdated concepts; guys trying to sell bullets and the like. Not meaning to flame, but let's get the record straight.
Your background is as a part time DJ and part time cop. You run a firearms training business.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
No YOU get it straight I was a full time DJ in a major top 15 market AND FULL TIME Chief of Police among other things. I OWN a firearms training business. Keep in mind Ayoob was a jeweler. Nothing wrong with that or being a DJ, I was also a news photographer/reporter with a specialty of covering police/fire activity and that included riots of the 60's. I can send you a firearms related publishing history if you like including dates and publications of hundreds of firearms magazines, two books, and a few others. You left some out. Your research skills are suspect.
You boast a training staff of 2 including yourself.you offer a 1 day advanced handgun course which includes teaching such valuable
concepts as handgun shooting out to 100 yards. You offer a defensive shotgun course in 2 hours.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Two staffers is a problem? Cooper is only one. Funny math. But we have an instructors class in March and will expand into Florida and Texas this year. Bigger is better?
Basic class is one 6 hour day. Advanced is one day, runs from about 4:00 p.m. until about 3:00 a.m. or when they get tired of shooting outdoors in the dark. Its run later. The 100 yard idea I got from Ayoob.
Talk to him. We do it and then take students to 7-10 feet and they see their miss rate skyrocket at such close range which comes as a surprise. The 100 yard thing is just to give them idea of the accuracy of duty weapons at that range. Greater than most thing. More informative than applicable of course.
A 1 day "Advanced Handgun class! Why am I not surprised that you don't teach a press
check? There's only so many hours in....1 day.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Instread of screwing around with nonsense like that we stress shooting in the dark.
Which would you think a person would need most?
So tell me again...who's sellin' what?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
You did a nice promotional job for me. Appreciate it. Is Cooper now doing it for
free? If so I'll do it to remain competative.
BTW, I used to work nights as a cop and go to work from the radio studio. Worked both jobs at once. Guess I'm the first cop to work more than one job. I'll take credit for inventing that concept. Radio is only a 3 hour work day in some cases.
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