Lights-out-left-handed-1911-press-test?

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Mendocino

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The subject line kinda says it all. I have been doing some low level, low light, or lights-out live target engagement and was wondering how my more learned TFL colleagues accomplish the lights-out, left-handed, 1911 press test. I can do it with the index finger of my right hand but this often leads to double feeds. I have also experimented with the pinky of my right hand but this is unreliable, and takes a great deal of complex motor skills. Any suggestions/comments?

BTW-cross posted to the Tactical Forums.

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It is far better to dare mighty things, though riddled with failure, than to live in the dull grey of mediocrity.


[This message has been edited by Mendocino (edited February 09, 2000).]
 
You are trying to make something that is bone simple very complex. DON'T!!!
Put up target in normal lighting at 15 feet. Most rooms are that long.
LOOK AT THE TARGET!! In real life you won't be looking at a gun. (weapon threat focus and NO you can't train out of it.)
Fully extend both arms with gun BELOW chin level. You'll this also in real life.
Look AT the target and fire ONE shot with BOTH eyes open. You will instantly see where you hit.
If you shoot to the right you squeezed the gun. Up and down is from not pushing forward.
All EASY to correct.
Fire several shots and you will WATCH them impact the target. Doesn't take much practice. Now move target to 21 feet and do the same thing looking AT the target. It gets boring and effective.
If you turn lights way down and do the same thing you will find you do very well. 100% hit rate is common. With gun below your chin you won't be blinded by muzzle flash, you will have 100% of your vision ON the target. You will see bullets impact, and when the lights are down you won't need to as the slugs go to the same place they did with the lights on.
This works for most shooters out to 50 feet with ease. I'm about 80% hit rate in DARKNESS at 50 feet and close to 100% at 21 feet. It is not a big mystery. Make it simple.
Darkness is to YOUR advantage and we can hide in it.

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Specialists in the use and training of lethal force.
 
Why do people think they need to keep checking to see if the chamber is loaded?
You put a mag in, drop the slide and its loaded. You know that already. Why the need for a "press check"?
 
Good quetion, nobody. If you loaded the dadgum thing and no one has touched it since, why in the name of JMB do you have the need to check if it is loaded?

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Ne Conjuge Nobiscum
"If there be treachery, let there be jehad!"
 
I do the press test for the same reason I have insurance, just to be sure its there if I need it. Why do it? When loading the weapon the magazine may not have fully seated, consequently a round was not made to battery. I would sure like to know this before I went to leathal force.


When I shoot right-handed its no problem, I can do it with the left hand pinky in any conditions; quick and re-assuring.
 
nice point Jim V, I always ask the rookies on
the line "Is your weapon loaded?" The answer
I'm looking for is to stare me straight in the hands and say yes or nothing at at. I their eyes move or if they move their body
to check then there dead.
 
what is the loudest sound a gun can make?
"click"
there is no good reason not to press check when the option exists, just like there is no good reason not to carry a reload when the option exists. if you train shooters, you will have experienced the beginning shooter pulling the trigger with no bang, followed by a quizzical look- you'll experience this many, many times. these are the folks who did not follow directions and press check.

the tap in tap-rack-bang exists because the problem of improperly seated magazines exist. it is an improperly seated mag that will produce an empty chamber- this is why one should press check. a press check happens prior to holstering. it is a precautionary measure that is well worth its while.

best regards,
joe

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www.skdtac.com
tactical accessories for self-defense and le
 
Mendocino - Doing a press check on a 1911 is easy. SEEING if it is loaded in the dark is not. I'm a lefty, and in the dark I would grasp the gun in my left hand (muzzle down range) with fingers over the slide top and thumb around the grip safety. I would then squeeze my hand together to open the chamber a bit and feel for a round in the chamber with my right hand. I would also drop the mag and check it as well.
 
As to the method: Whatever is comfortable, including moving the weapon to the right hand. I personally cannot press check a Glock in the same manner as the 1911.

As to the reason: Mr. Murphy, guys. It's good practice to press check the weapon, including the mag every time it's "loaded" or out of hand. Additionally, it should be press checked every time it's drawn in preparation of a possible threat.

I'm reading Capstick's "Death in the Long Grass". Classic case there, goes something like this: Lion in camp, Capstick checks weapon and exits tent. Lion gone. Capstick leans weapon against tree and checks on someone. Capstick picks up gun and trails lion. Lion charges Capstick. Capstick clicks on lion. Capstick's gun bearer comes to timely rescue.

What happened. When the weapon was leaning against the tree, a well meaning non-hunter took it upon himself to unload it to render it less "dangerous".

How many competitors here have never had an empty chamber at the start of an event? I have. How many of you high cap Glockster's have never had a full mag fail to seat, thus cycling an empty chamber? I have.

When in doubt and when able, Press Check!
Rich

[This message has been edited by Rich Lucibella (edited February 09, 2000).]
 
NAD,

That's basically what I have been doing. However, using the right-hand I have to use a pinch grip with my fingers and thumb, and then press with the pinky. this is a very complex motor skill and requires quite a bit of hand strength to do reliably. Maybe Rich is right, switch hands.
 
hi guys,
if i might add to this discussion, i like to keep things simple- meaning the same press check for light and no-light.

using the same motion as if i'm racking the slide, i grasp the firearm in my right hand (for righties), use an overhand grab of the front of the slide, such that my middle finger is just forward of the ejection port, pull the slide back just far enough for me to "scratch" the side of the cartridge with my left forefinger.

my strong hand stays on the gun, you don't have to break your scan, and everything is simple and surefire.

for lefties, grasp the slide overhand with your right hand, and use the tip of your thumb to "scratch" for the shell case as you break the slide open.

with 1911's, positively engaging the thumbsafety tells me i'm in battery, with glocks and others, a quick palm hit to the rear corner of the slide tells me i'm good to go.

tactile verification is the way to go- keeps your eyes available to scan.

best,
joe


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www.skdtac.com
tactical accessories for self-defense and le


[This message has been edited by skdtac (edited February 09, 2000).]
 
I guess I am just old fashioned. When I carry a gun it is loaded, and I damn well know it is loaded. I don't have to play Hollywood gangster flipping the cylinder in and out or racking the slide and throwing live ammo all over the place. Makes a great show, though, until someone who does more with a gun than play with it punches your ticket.

Jim
 
Thank you Joe,

Sometimes I can't see the forest for the trees. My slide is not serrated forward of the ejection port, and is rather slick, making your method difficult on the gun in question. However, I like your method: quick, simple, and the same on strong or support side. I guess I'll have to get those additional slide serrations. Thanks.

JH
 
hi jim,
the only way you know a gun is loaded is by checking it. your logic is the same logic that gets people killed when handling "unloaded" guns- "but i was damn sure it was unloaded!". if it can happen one way, it can happen the other, and your gun may not be loaded when you need it to be. "damn sure" doesn't cut it unfortunately. but then again, you probably don't believe in practicing immediate malfunction clearance... why do i picture you quizzically looking at your gun when you pull the trigger and it goes click? ;)

i often find that people who are fixed in their ways don't have room for new ideas, and belittle solid techniques as being "hollywood" or otherwise as you have. jim, you are concluding that anyone who press checks does not do anything but play with the gun, whereas folks like yourself have a supposed monopoly on gun-fighting experience.

i don't want to be the one to give you the rude wakeup call, but trust me, there is more than enough real-world experience to go around with those of us who "press-check". and your suggestion that someone will get popped as they are press-checking is somewhat amusing. press-checking is not something anyone is supposed to do in the middle of a fight.

best regards,
joe

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www.skdtac.com
tactical accessories for self-defense and le
 
Jim-
I guess it's a matter of personal philosophy and training. I have yet to see any of the well known trainers, including Jeff Cooper, Gunsite, Thunder Ranch, Harry Humphries, Walt Marshall, Jack Furr and others drop the press check regimen from their training.

Additionally, I don't know of too many dangerous game hunters who consider the press check a waste of time. YMMV.

As has been said, it is a technique that's employed in anticipation of possible engagement, not in the face of one. Additionally, when properly performed, the press check requires neither a realignment of the weapon, dropping the eyes to the weapon, ejecting a round from the weapon or delaying ones ability to bring a (loaded) weapon into play. OTOH, the time between that first "click" and a tap-rack-bang drill is about 3 months...even in competition. :)
Rich
 
I never claimed to even have gunfight experience. But it seems to me odd that people go around carrying guns and not even knowing if they are loaded or not. In the home and on the range I practice all the safety checks. But when a gun goes in a holster, it is loaded. Otherwise it is a clumsy hammer. And no, I have never forgotten and carried an empty gun; I may be old, but not that old.

As for immediate action, I have cleared failures in rapid fire and gotten all five off, and I can rack a slide about as fast as most. (And I don't spend a lot of time with puzzled looks.) But if a gun doesn't work, I won't carry it, so malfunctions are unlikely.

The idea of checking in anticipation of a problem may seem like a good idea if you can get a little bird to tell you when to anticipate a problem. Again, though, you should not need to check.

One interesting point. Street cops can often spot people carrying guns illegally simply because they can't stop fiddling with the gun. Also, I see few cops walking around checking their guns to see if they are loaded. They, too, know darn well their guns are loaded.

Jim
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>
One interesting point. Street cops can often spot people carrying guns illegally simply because they can't stop fiddling with the gun. Also, I see few cops walking around checking their guns to see if they are loaded. They, too, know darn well their guns are loaded. [/quote]

In my experience in LEO training the vast majority of LEOs are not particularly adept with firearms. The average civilian self-defense firearms enthusiast is much more qualified. I would not use the actions of LEOs as a supporting argument. I mean no disrespect to LEOs, just making a personal observation.
 
Another tack, Jim. My last try.

Case 1:
It's two AM. Something goes bump in the night downstairs. You retrieve your nearest firearm from under the pillow, in the bedside drawer, the top of the closet or the safe. Do you:
a) Perform a nightime press check?
b) Turn the lights on and check the weapon?
c) Assume it's loaded because it was so in your last recorded memory?

Case II:
A rural Sheriff's Deputy called to the scene of a possible night time burglary. Backup not available. He exits his auto in a discreet location. He circles the building and, from a position of cover, finds the alley door ajar and a light on inside. Does he:
a) Draw his weapon and perform a night time press check?
b) Draw his weapon, turn on his flashlight and perform a press check?
c) Draw his weapon and enter the building safe in the "recollection" that he properly loaded the piece at the beginning of shift?

Mendocino-
Sorry if I've contributed to the apparent sidetrack of this thread.
Rich

[This message has been edited by Rich Lucibella (edited February 09, 2000).]
 
I realize this is a 1911 thread; but the topic has seemed more generic.

Someone mentioned the Glock. To check if there's one in the chamber, is it valid to feel the extractor with the (right-handed person) right index finger? It bulges out a little when there's one in the chamber. Although it's a high place to rest a finger, I'm trying to train myself to always brush it when holding the gun to "feel" for the loaded weapon (and likewise, extra enforcement of "finger off trigger").


Battler.
 
Various "chamber indicators" only verify that something is causing the little bugger to protrude. You still want to verify that there is a round in the chamber.
 
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