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Light Triggers and Lawyers???
- Thread starter Mercenary
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Also, the arrourneys know that trigger work would have been done because when there is a shooting the gun that was involved gets put into evidence until everything is cleared. They also have a gunsmith analyze the weapon and forensics also does a ballistics test to see if infact that was the actual gun used in the shooting. As far as the other stuff goes. It all depends on what your state laws are. Here in Florida we have a no retreat law. If your life or someone else's life is in danger, you do what ever means possible to protect your life or theirs.
Adding to the legal risk of modifying triggers towards the light side, Mr. Ayoob has also reported cases in which lawyers claimed that the shooting was unintentional, and therefore negligent and subject to civil liability, instead of self defense.
My handgun triggers have always stayed stock.
My handgun triggers have always stayed stock.
Spats McGee
Administrator
briandg has stated it quite well:
In the case of civil liability, there is no 5th Amendment right, as self-incrimination is not an issue. Plaintiff's counsel can subpoena the SD shooter for a deposition, and the shooter will have to show up and testify.
And this?
briandg said:Here's the bottom line as I see it.
A hostile lawyer is paid to take you down. He will use everything he can to do that. It's his job. Did you use hollow points or reloads? Is there a scary picture of a skull or dragon carved into the grips of your pistol? Did you shoot the guy 2 in the chest and one in the head? Did you have a specially made, highly customized .45 acp that you carry everywhere, in case you "have an opportunity to use it?" Shoot, even your tattoo that says "kill them all and let god sort them out" will be used against you.
A lawyer is going to be smarter than the average yahoo, and he will know his job. He may be an angry crusader, who hates people who have guns, and you may present a challenge to his principles. winning against such a person is going to break you in legal fees.
Let me be honest. I'm a coward. I don't want to spend thousands of dollars and hundreds of hours in court trying to save my butt because I used glasers instead of silvertips or hydrashoks. You will make a target out of yourself by going to extremes. Is a light trigger, a titanium firing pin, or whatever, an extreme? That isn't your decision. it will be the decision of a hostile attorney.
The very best advice I have to give to anyone is that they should buy a factory made combat ready pistol. They should use standard police rounds like hydrashock or silvertip, for example. You cannot seriously be accused of deliberate murder by using a super duper criminal killing gun and ammunition if all you did was take an off the shelf "specialty" 1911 and standard wal-mart ammunition.
This is the only point with which I take issue, and it's also partially right. The reason that I take issue with it is that, in the criminal context, self-defense is an affirmative defense, meaning that the self-defense shooter will have the burden of proving that the shooting was, in fact, self defense. The shooter can keep his mouth shut, but it's up to him to prove that it was SD. IOW, the shooter may be able to avoid discussing the gun that was used, but he may also have to take the stand at trial to support his SD claim, and be subject to cross-examination about the weapon.briandg said:And most importantly, you shut up, and not even discuss what sort of weapon you used.
In the case of civil liability, there is no 5th Amendment right, as self-incrimination is not an issue. Plaintiff's counsel can subpoena the SD shooter for a deposition, and the shooter will have to show up and testify.
And this?
Oy vey is right. From a legal perspective, these are monumentally bad ideas. If someone who did and said things like that came to me looking for legal defense, he would need lots of cash and be prepared to pay up front. That kind of guy makes his lawyer's job much more difficult, which means the lawyer has to spend more time on it, which means it costs more.briandg said:. . . .A guy was telling me all of the cool things he had done to his 1911. Skull grips, etc, and the final thing? he had a smiley face on the end of the pin by the muzzle.
"I want this to be the last thing he sees before I shoot him."
Oh, lord to be a fly on the wall when he tells that to the cops and prosecutors if he ever is engaged in a questionable shooting.
He also insisted that he would never use anything but a .45, because the hole is so big and scary.
Oh, come on, that hole is so much bigger and scarier than the hole in a python?
He also insisted on nothing but standard ball ammo, because they look so "cool."
"you are going to shoot the guy with this because it looks COOL???? He's never going to see them!"
Oy vey.
aarondhgraham
New member
About that pharmacist,,,
That was in Oklahoma city and a different circumstance all together.
The pharmacist had already shot the perp who was down on the floor twitching,,,
He then got another gun, came back, and shot him again,,,
This time killing the perp.
Aarond
...a pharmacist was recently found guilty of murder for shooting someone multiple times when it (apparantly) wasn't necessary?
That was in Oklahoma city and a different circumstance all together.
The pharmacist had already shot the perp who was down on the floor twitching,,,
He then got another gun, came back, and shot him again,,,
This time killing the perp.
Aarond
Roland Thunder
New member
classicshotgunner said:Light trigger pulls were enough to cause Mr. Ruger to make the triggers on all his Ruger firearms very heavy
I had a Ruger SR9 and it had anything but a heavy trigger
Aaron is totally correct. In short, the pharma shot the first perp in the head, and he hit the floor. He then chased the second from the store, trying to apprehend/kill him.
he then returned to the store, walked around a prone body, retrieved another gun, and shot this unmoving unconscious individual several times. This is all as clear as day on his own security footage camera; no BS testimony from fuzzy headed eye witnesses.
Under no laws known to myself are you allowed to shoot an unconscious, unarmed person in self defense.
That was a clear cut case of murder, and his mouthing off at the press in defense of his actions was just plain stupid.
Why retrieve a second gun? I've heard that he emptied the first gun. Why shoot the downed perp? It's my understanding that he still considered himself and his staff to be in danger from the unarmed and unconscious perp.
This was the stupidest case that I have heard of since the guy shot the japanese exhange student in his driveway with a .44 magnum.
he then returned to the store, walked around a prone body, retrieved another gun, and shot this unmoving unconscious individual several times. This is all as clear as day on his own security footage camera; no BS testimony from fuzzy headed eye witnesses.
Under no laws known to myself are you allowed to shoot an unconscious, unarmed person in self defense.
That was a clear cut case of murder, and his mouthing off at the press in defense of his actions was just plain stupid.
Why retrieve a second gun? I've heard that he emptied the first gun. Why shoot the downed perp? It's my understanding that he still considered himself and his staff to be in danger from the unarmed and unconscious perp.
This was the stupidest case that I have heard of since the guy shot the japanese exhange student in his driveway with a .44 magnum.
Oy vey is right. From a legal perspective, these are monumentally bad ideas. If someone who did and said things like that came to me looking for legal defense, he would need lots of cash and be prepared to pay up front. That kind of guy makes his lawyer's job much more difficult, which means the lawyer has to spend more time on it, which means it costs more.
Testosterone loaded macho stuff like this belongs nowhere. Not in a driver's seat, not in a marriage, not behind a handgun. It sure doesn't belong in court, but that is exactly where it will eventually befound, won't it?
We hear these things coming out of the mouths of the lesser endowed members of our community, roll our eyes, and try to ignore it, but we really shouldn't. we should be trying to save lives.
Obviously, not everyone who talks like that is an idiot, sometimes it's just nonsense talk, like zombie strategy. it can be fun to talk nonsense.
I counseled him many, many times,
"if you ever feel the need to shoot someone, shoot yourself instead. You aren't going to like prison."
Everything the pharmacist did up until he pulled the second gun and shot the kid lying with a serious brain injury on his floor was legal. This case has been discussed in several other threads and really has nothing to do with trigger pull issues. He murdered a defenseless kid with no self defense issue at all once he picked up the second gun and shot the kid a second time. He was rightly convicted of murder.
The DA will have any weapon involved in a shooting tested by a firearms expert as well as the ammo that was used. Trigger jobs and hand loaded ammo are just bad legal quagmires to enter and opens up the accusation of a bad shoot when it was nothing like that. Often, it will only be your word against the other person or their witnesses if he doesn't survive. Just one less hurdle to jump over should you ever need to exercise your right to self defense. There is simply too much legal precedent in place already on these issues to even argue about from the expert opinions on this issue already.
I carry a Ruger SP101 DAO first because I prefer revolvers, just call me old and secondly because it is DAO, it takes away the accidental discharge issue from a DA/SA where you might have put it in SA mode for the shoot. Even doing that raises the issue of an accidental discharge as several cases demonstrate.
Anyway, that is my two cents on the issue which I choose to adhere to the DAO trigger pull for my own CCW.
The DA will have any weapon involved in a shooting tested by a firearms expert as well as the ammo that was used. Trigger jobs and hand loaded ammo are just bad legal quagmires to enter and opens up the accusation of a bad shoot when it was nothing like that. Often, it will only be your word against the other person or their witnesses if he doesn't survive. Just one less hurdle to jump over should you ever need to exercise your right to self defense. There is simply too much legal precedent in place already on these issues to even argue about from the expert opinions on this issue already.
I carry a Ruger SP101 DAO first because I prefer revolvers, just call me old and secondly because it is DAO, it takes away the accidental discharge issue from a DA/SA where you might have put it in SA mode for the shoot. Even doing that raises the issue of an accidental discharge as several cases demonstrate.
Anyway, that is my two cents on the issue which I choose to adhere to the DAO trigger pull for my own CCW.
serf 'rett
New member
Another note on the OK pharm is the kid he killed wasn't armed. His friend, who was the one with the gun, booked it out of the store with the pharm in hot pursuit. Anyone want to take bets the DA pointed out the pursuit of the second perp was used to further establish the bloody mindset of the pharm?
Right or wrong, a lawyer will use the light trigger pull in any way he can to win his case.
I suspect anyone who has experienced an unexpected discharge from a light trigger would understand why this could be a poor idea in a high stress situation. I definitely would feel more comfortable with a stock trigger than a target trigger (1/2 pound to 2 pound range).
Right or wrong, a lawyer will use the light trigger pull in any way he can to win his case.
I suspect anyone who has experienced an unexpected discharge from a light trigger would understand why this could be a poor idea in a high stress situation. I definitely would feel more comfortable with a stock trigger than a target trigger (1/2 pound to 2 pound range).
My purpose built target pistols all are SAO and have very light triggers. I would never want to try use them in an SD situation unless I had to.
All of my carry pistols are DA/SA, have factory triggers that are smooth, but factory pull weight. Much easier to control in a time of crisis.
All of my carry pistols are DA/SA, have factory triggers that are smooth, but factory pull weight. Much easier to control in a time of crisis.
serf'rett, the fact of the decedant not being armed in OKC actually had no bearing on the case, as noted by the police and DA. The decedant behaved as though he was armed - which would lead a reasonable person in the same situation to believe he was, in fact, armed - but even more importantly, he was working as part of a team, and his teammate was armed.
Case law pretty much says that every (present) member of a criminal gang is equally liable for the actions of the gang, and every (present) member of such a gang has qualified himself as a justifiable target.
So, his being unarmed was legally meaningless.
Case law pretty much says that every (present) member of a criminal gang is equally liable for the actions of the gang, and every (present) member of such a gang has qualified himself as a justifiable target.
So, his being unarmed was legally meaningless.
Stressfire
New member
Lawyers aside, because it is doubtless that they will use a "hair trigger" to make you look like a killer and any training you have received to make you look like a rogue assassin, I wouldn't mess with the internal components of any carry gun. A range toy or competition gun, sure, play around. But once you start messing around with an original design it is just 1 more thing to go wrong.
A nice tricked out trigger job is great, 'til the spring breaks when you really really really need it to be flawless.
A nice tricked out trigger job is great, 'til the spring breaks when you really really really need it to be flawless.
The argument that a light trigger "makes the gun" more deadly is nuts. Unless the trigger is light to the point where it is no longer safe (a "hair" trigger) and I know that is a gray area as to how light is to light..but I digress That same argument can be made about night or FO sights, grips, laser sights or flashlight attachments a number of things.
If I add FO sights to my guy and shoot someone in the dark would the DA try to use it against me?
I can tell you this though, a guy at the LGS told me any Glocks sold to the NYPD have a special heavy trigger after a few incidents of officers emptying whole magazines into suspects and using the 'I didnt realize how many shots I fired because of the adrenaline" line after giving initial statments about only firing 3 or 4 shots.
If I add FO sights to my guy and shoot someone in the dark would the DA try to use it against me?
I can tell you this though, a guy at the LGS told me any Glocks sold to the NYPD have a special heavy trigger after a few incidents of officers emptying whole magazines into suspects and using the 'I didnt realize how many shots I fired because of the adrenaline" line after giving initial statments about only firing 3 or 4 shots.
In situation where your life is in danger a heavy trigger pull, like a 6 pound, will never be noticed.
People post this all the time, and I have to wonder: Will having your life threatened somehow make you a BETTER shot, able to shoot precisely with a trigger you can't normally shoot that well with? Is your 'adrenaline dump' going to help your trigger control, or do you plan on jerking the trigger anyway, so it won't matter?
I have done things to my guns to make them shoot more accurately, and pose less danger to bystanders should I have to use them in self-defense. I am prepared to articulate precisely why I purposely shot at anyone I shoot at, and will let my lawyers counter the false arguments presented.
One need only ask an 'expert' witness if he would prefer to hit a small difficult target with a three pound trigger or a nine pound trigger to demonstrate the principle.
Today, 12:30 PM #35
DT Guy
Senior Member
Join Date: February 4, 2001
Posts: 536
Quote:
In situation where your life is in danger a heavy trigger pull, like a 6 pound, will never be noticed.
People post this all the time, and I have to wonder: Will having your life threatened somehow make you a BETTER shot, able to shoot precisely with a trigger you can't normally shoot that well with? Is your 'adrenaline dump' going to help your trigger control, or do you plan on jerking the trigger anyway, so it won't matter?
I have done things to my guns to make them shoot more accurately, and pose less danger to bystanders should I have to use them in self-defense. I am prepared to articulate precisely why I purposely shot at anyone I shoot at, and will let my lawyers counter the false arguments presented.
One need only ask an 'expert' witness if he would prefer to hit a small difficult target with a three pound trigger or a nine pound trigger to demonstrate the principle.
__________________
He who fights and runs away had better run pretty damn fast.
Government, Anarchy and Chaos
Sorry, but I don't believe that is good advice for other people to use fro themselves. First of all, you are admitting your lawyers will have to defend that position. My friend, that takes a whole lot of money.
Secondly, you state all you have to get is an expert to state he would rather shoot a 3 pound than 9 pound trigger pull gun. You are over looking the fact that the legal cases already establish a hair trigger in terms of SA revolver pull. From the literature I have read, the experts will not be on your side my friend, just read Mas Ayoob link I listed above and the legal cases he noted in his opinion.
Third, you state that YOU have done things to your own trigger which opens you up to the precise danger that this thread is talking about. The first thing that you will contend with in your case is the manufacturer's expert witness on why they designed your gun with a heavier trigger for safety reasons. The DA will have 10 witnesses on their side testifying why modified triggers are dangerous in addition to Federal appeals courts ruling that modified or single action triggers on a DA/SA revolver is a hair trigger. They have already defined this legally and you my friend are not very likely going to reverse these long standing legal decisions.
Lastly, it is likely that they will read this thread and the many posts advising you not to modify your trigger in a CCW gun and they will use all of your own public posts against you as well. If they find posts where you exhibit over the top comments on what you would do in a shooting incident, that will be entered into evidence against you as well. Remember, this is a PUBLIC forum subject to review by the DA if you should end up in that situation.
So, if you want to shoot off your mouth in a public forum and go against conventional expert advice by people that testify in gun cases for a living like Mas Ayoob, I would think that if God forbid you ever get yourself in that situation, you will be digging yourself a huge hole you won't be able to get out of even before you have ever shot one bullet in a self defense situation.
For myself, I will stick with a DAO revolver where the manufacturer will testify on my behalf, not against me. I will hope and pray I never once have to use my gun in self defense EVER, but if I have to save my life or that of my family, I hope and pray all of the details after the fact point to the situation being one of the gravest extreme as Mas Ayoob wrote in his famous book so many years ago. Carrying a CCW is a legitimate right, but it is also an awesome responsibility not to be taken lightly. A cavalier attitude doesn't demonstrate what they will be looking for especially from your own defense lawyers.
Nevertheless, if you wish to modify your trigger and tell your lawyers to go get them boys, all I have to say is good luck.
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secret_agent_man
Moderator
The argument that a light trigger "makes the gun" more deadly is nuts
True, perhaps. But possibly an easy sell to a jury. And if a prosecutor can get a witness to testify you also had your finger on the trigger prior to firing, you're toast. There's some expert testimony circulating to the effect that involuntary muscle movement will invariably cause the weapon to fire. So, in the final analysis, you shot the perp involuntarily, aka not on purpose. Down, down, down you go. If you don't believe me, ask Ayoob.
Today, 01:11 PM #38
BRE346
Member
Join Date: February 11, 2011
Location: Victoria, TX
Posts: 62
Alaska444 is wiser than the usual bean.
We have an auto in the motorhome that requires a long heavy pull.
My carry is in condition 1, loaded, cocked and locked. It's going to take deliberate action to fire it. I think that's defensable.
Any takers?
__________________
Ancient Airman
Just don't ask my wife if I am wiser than the usual bean, I would be in real trouble. LOL.
In any case, I have done quite a bit of reading before and after I got my CCW. I want to know what I am facing if I ever use my weapon in self defense. I am under no illusions that it is something that I want to avoid at all costs. As Mas Ayoob states, only under the gravest extreme.
This is a discussion held many times on TFL. Mas Ayoob participated in this very topic back in 2008. I believe he has the credentials to justify stating a light trigger is not at all a good idea. I defer to his opinion.
Beat me to it, I concur so lets see how many folks here that have NEVER been summoned to court to testify in a SD shooting case argue there point that there is nothing wrong with a light trigger pull on there CCW weapon. Those who disagree may very well need Mr. Ayoobs services if said weapon is used and I do believe that his service does not come cheap.
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