Libertarian … Yes / No … sell me one way or the other

We can only speculate upon who will be offered up to us as Presidential candidates. Frankly, I'm not sure the names and faces will matter much. Whether they are Democrats or Republicans they represent the same path to tyranny.

So, while reserving our rights to modify our opinions as facts become known, let me explain why this Republican family probably will vote Libertarian.

The Democrats and Republicans have abandoned their heritage. The Democrats have become outright Socialists and the Republicans have become the "me too" party. My family has not left the Republican Party - they have deserted us.

As stated here on TFL, the only differences between the two major parties involve how quickly we become downgraded from "citizens" to "subjects". In our hearts, it's the early 1770s all over again.

We don't trust Bush. He's our governor. He implemented the Concealed Handgun law to "give" us a privilege only reminiscent of our Rights. Tragically, he is his father's son. Blood tells. TFL posts have documented indications that he intends to "compromise" us (pun intended) as his father did.

Most Republicans are truly Democrats or Socialists by nature. The few Republicans who are Americans by nature are not viable candidates against Bush for the Presidency - regardless of how much our hearts are with those few lovers of Liberty.

Other than Bush, Republicans have no viable candidate against Gore. I foresee no acceptable Republican candidate for Vice President. I have so informed the Republican Party - not that they care either. They seem smug and secure that we have no choice but to vote Republican or "waste" our votes.

My family and I don't want to "waste" our votes, therefore we will show our despair, our anger, our Americanism by fighting the Dem/Rep oligarchy and voting for the Libertarian Party.

We were not quite convinced to vote Libertarian until 45King pointed out, "a vote for the lesser of 2 evils is still a vote for evil." Well said. I became ashamed to be a Republican. My family agrees - no longer will we vote for evil.

If many voters desert the Republican party we may experience the horror of Al Gore becoming President. He is a liar, an unindicted criminal, an ego-maniacal would-be dictator, therefore considered a worthy successor to Clinton.

President Gore may be crazy, stupid, or power-mad enough to push us hard enough, fast enough, to awaken America. I hope so.

Elsewhere TFL folks have said it will take a generation or more for Americans to awaken. It is my great and constant fear that this comment might be true.

America must awaken while the veterans of WWII are still here or at least in our recent memories - while the horror of the Holocaust is, if not understood, at least believed. We must understand, "It CAN happen here!" and "Never again!"

In no way do I mean to belittle veterans of "the forgotten war" or "the misbegotten war" or other campaigns where our troops have sacrificed and fought with honor and valor. The problem was never our troops but our government.

We need all our veterans but we especially need the veterans, and their families, from the bygone era when Americans knew why and whom we were fighting. They had a Patriotism, a Unity, a Mission that has not again been equalled. They deserve to see America right itself.

And right itself America may. Al Gore may boil the water fast enough for the frog to realize he's being boiled. Pray God, let it come.

Eventually I will die in any case. Let it be earlier if need be, in the name of American Liberty. Better to forfeit a few years than to survive only to burden our children with the yoke of tyranny. Let it come if it must - if it is inevitable.

Let it come soon, while I may yet myself answer that call of, "If not now, when? If not us, who?"

My family of six will vote against the Eurocrat, the oligarchy, and the evil of tyranny. We will vote FOR the Bill of Rights and the Freedoms and Liberty those ten Amendments confirm and secure.

We will vote for the only American political party that recognizes the intent of our forefathers - the only party of self-reliance - the only party who may permit us to achieve our American Dreams of Freedom and Liberty.

We will vote for our Rights. We will vote for our future and for our children's future. We will vote for the Libertarian Party.


[This message has been edited by Dennis (edited May 26, 1999).]
 
Denis,
I’m ready for a bayonet charge after that…

I am also afraid that we do not have a generation to turn things around … recent disclosures about China make clear that we have given them all that is necessary to annihilate us long before that. We need results now!


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to locate, close with and …
 
I really agree with the principles expressed here and find no fault with Patriotism.
Voting is a mathematical exercise.Reduced to its simplest form the candidate with the most votes wins.Until we Libertarians have a viable candidate,a Libertarian vote is essentially a Democratic vote.I for one am not willing to do anything that would help Al Gore win.
Voting should not be done on the basis of principle alone.We have to consider the effect of a "non vote.


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Better days to be,

Ed
 
Ed,
No person of logic and fairness could attack you for your vote. On the other hand, I'm hoping my non-support of the Republicans will be a wake-up call for them. I don't think a Republican President will stop the anti-gun actions of the Democrats. And if Gore wants a fight, I am mentally prepared for it. (I only wish I had the $$$ to properly prepare for it. I'll have to reload for one of y'all...) :D
 
I voted for Perot in '96, and so did just about everyone in my family. Was that silly? You tell me.

I watched BOTH conventions. The Dems were civil, upbeat, complimented their opponents and honored their opponents' wives and supporters. They made nice sounds and said all the right things. I would have voted for Clinton in a heartbeat except for one little thing; I knew it was all lies, not a darn word was the truth and everybody knew it. Otherwise the Dems would NOT have voted for him!

I looked forward to the Reps' convention, and was greeted by hate and venom spewed in all directions by all manner of people, Dole caving on issues he had said and I believed were important to him as well as me. Never figured why he did that-the vote was sewed up, he would be the nominee without doubt, it was time to LEAD! Like, "This is the way it's gonna be, if you don't like it go home." He promised to treat my rights just as roughly as I knew Clinton would, but at least Clinton had the sense to deny it. Even then, I would have voted Rep and hoped for the best except for one little thing; I knew beyond a doubt that Dole was telling the truth, he would actually honor the stupid commitments he was making.

So! I ended up absolutely not going to vote for either Clinton or Dole, the easiest path was to stay home and get drunk. But then both parties would rant about "apathy", and I wanted to say loud and clear that I was not apathetic, I simply did not have an even marginally acceptable choice from either party. I'm not sure a Libertarian was on our ballot, don't recall one, but Perot was handy and I knew he wouldn't win, so that box worked fine.

All my life, except that once, I have voted for the candidate I most wanted to win. Allowing spin doctors to tell you who is going to win so that you can claim to vote for the winner is defeatist. If Bush proves to be like Dole I'm liable to do the same again. If Al Gore wins because of it, I've had a nice life and my guns are loaded, let him do his worst. The Republican party can throw off the yoke of nasty, noisy fundamentalist flakes and get down to the business of protecting my rights from government instead of trying to remove them or it will never get another vote from me.

Larry P.
 
hey, folks, the only wasted vote is the one not cast at all. my dad said that if tere wasn't something he wanted to vote for, there was for sure something to vote against.
look at thefigures, less than 1/2 of registered voters turn out. the key to electing any candidate is voter turnout and thats exactly what we need to do.
i said it on another thread, and i'll say it here,too. we all hang together or we will
surely hang separately. iknow lots of folks dont like the nra, thats ok too. but we need SOMETHING as a rally point. if we had 40 million voters show up and cast their vote for the same candidate or party, we could win.
cmore
 
To all you Libertarian voters.If you cant have your Libertarian president in 2001,would you rather have Al Gore or GW Bush?(assuming that they will be nominated)
That is the real issue.
If and when we can get a sure-nuff candidate,vote for him. Otherwise we will be electing Al Gore.
Ihave wondered if Dan Quayle would run as a Libertarian.
Remember that Ross Perot supporters elected Clinton.TWICE!!!

I like DC's idea of registering and sending it to the Repubs. I have already cut both of my Repub senators loose because of their panic vote on Feinstein et al.
My Repub Representative swears he will not vote against us. We shall see.
In the meantime Register as a Libertarian!

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Better days to be,

Ed
 
Gosh, Ed, would I rather have Al Gore or George Bush for President? Would I rather be ruled by Hitler or Stalin? Would I rather be shot or hung? Die of cancer or heart disease? DO YOU GET MY DRIFT?

Alright, I'll answer the question: Gore. No question in my mind about it. Two days into the Gore administration there won't be a gun owner in the entire stinking country who has any doubt that their right to own guns, ANY KIND OF GUNS, is under attack. Civil disobedience will become more popular among gun owners than 9MM, the militia movement would outnumber the NRA within a month, and we might have a revolution before the year was out, assuming he wasn't assasinated.

Whereas Bush would just continue the gradual erosion of our rights, all of them, not just the right to keep and bear arms, which we've seen under both major parties this century. He's go at it slowly, systematically, and never quite piss us off enough to provoke a revolt. Bush will succeed where Gore would fail.
 
Ya know it seems to me that all of these libertarian posts(hang on putting on abestos shorts now), seem to have a common thread--lets either vote for the canidate who has not the votes to win (upholding ideals), or to vote for the canidate that would take us down quickly so that out of the ashes (presumeably), a libertarian mindset will come to the forefront. Would ya'll agree with that?.............What makes you think that the general population will accept your view point or are you trying to build up your party at the expensive of everyone else?
fubsy.
 
Fubsy -

Don't worry about the asbestos. Those few who resort to flames can cut right through the stuff. :)

Your analysis, while blunt, is unfortunately correct, IMNSHO. I don't want George Jr to get the vote, and I surely don't want Gore either. Either way, we're screwed.

The only candidates who have never betrayed their party, AFAIK, are the Libertarians. If we can get that message out, there's no need to consider your vote wasted, and no need for a confrontation.

Vote Libertarian, and tell others! Don't keep it to yourself! I have an LP bumper sticker on my truck, and I'm not shy about telling people what we stand for.

Best tactic I've ever used when gathering converts is to ask them one simple question: "Which federal program would you be willing to give up if, in exchange, you never had to pay income taxes again?" Everyone has something: welfare, FHA, BATF, IRS (big surprise), et c.

I will continue to vote LP as long as I have the choice. Voting my conscience may seem cowardly to y'all, but I sleep better knowing that I didn't vote for any of the traitors in the Executive and Legislative branches, by either apathy or "wasted" votes.

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How does it become a man to behave toward this American government to-day?
I answer, that he cannot without disgrace be associated with it.
--Thoreau, "Civil Disobedience"
 
Coinneach has hit the nail on the head: tell other people what libertarian ideals are about.

Where I work, an engine components plant, people never discuss politics. It's not an enviroment conducive to conversation, but I mean, never. NASCAR, rabbits in the garden, is it going to rain... but real discourse is absent.

The last few days, to get conversations started, I've had a piece of paper sticking out of my breast pocket with "Vote libertarian" written on it, for all to see. I've had two takers so far, two of my supervisors. It's working! We are discussing issues, and one guy says he's been considering the libertarian vote.

Next step: recruit him to spread the word, and so on, and so on...

-boing
 
you're right, guys.. evil is still evil. so, libertarian it is. ithink too many of us thougt libertarian, but didn,t think they could win. if we can all pull together, we can MAKE a win. rally round the flag, there's trouble round the bend.
cmore
 
As stated, elections are a mathematical numbers game - he who gets the most numbers wins.
However, if I continue to vote Republican to fight off Democratic votes, how can I expect the Republicans to change? Their "greed-bone" has not been activated!
If Republicans see they are losing votes because they have become faux Democrats (thanks, DC), then the Reps will try to re-gain the LP votes. If not, then to hell with the lot of them. At least I'll be able to tell my kids I fought legally, withIN the system, before I had to ........

F. Grump

Scott,
Please check out the "You... Cultists!" thread. Thanks.

[This message has been edited by Dennis (edited May 29, 1999).]
 
Many of the people posting to this topic have used the 'wasted vote' argument as a reason to avoid making serious decisions. Something I read recently might twist the discussion a little:

Don't think of your vote as a means to an end, but as a statement of who you are.

db
 
On the “Bad News from Michigan” thread, TFL members documented that REPUBLICANS let a “done-deal” CCW law die in Michigan.

((QUOTE))
Brett Bellmore posted June 03, 1999 04:10 PM
It was published in both the Detroit Free Press, www.freep.com/news/mich/qgun3.htm
and Detroit News www.detnews.com/1999/metro/9906/03/06030055.htm
Both of which are anti-gun, of course. (The News came out of the closet especially for this fight.) So I'm not yet assuming all really IS lost, it may just be meant to dishearten us. But I AM e-mailing everyone who voted for the bill.

Ipecac posted June 03, 1999 09:25 PM
Republicans letting a pro-gun bill die? I can't believe it!
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"All I ask is equal freedom. When it is denied, as it always is, I take it
anyhow."
((UNQUOTE))

As the Democrats and Republicans have their little pillow fights, they agree on the
major issues such as “Gun Control”.

If we continue to do what we’ve always done,
we will continue to get what we’ve always gotten.

Vote Libertarian - for a change!

Dennis
 
Dave B

 “Don't think of your vote as a means to an end, but as a statement of who you are.” <

Sounds like a great campaign slogan … if it could get enough play.

Another factor that I do not recall seeing in this thread so far is the fact that Presidential candidates are elected through the Electoral College system. If my understanding is correct they (the E/C) are not required to vote with the popular vote … making it possible for a candidate to mathematically have the popular votes but lose the electoral.

With this in mind can a presidential vote be wasted, as it really is not placed on the scale deciding the matter?

No such obstacle with our House Reps.


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Scott,

You are 100% right.
-------
Fifteen candidates have become President of the United States with a popular vote less
than 50% of the total cast.

Three Presidents receiving the largest popular vote have failed to gain a majority in the
Electoral College:

1824 - Andrew Jackson
1876 - Samuel J. Tilden
1888 - Grover Cleveland

------- 1992 Almanac

Bookish Grump
 
We've seen Democrats, including our President, admit their goal is to eventually take away all firearms except those to be used to enforce governmental policy.

We've seen Republicans compromise our rights away gradually, but nearly consistently, and with increasing frequency.

We've seen Libertarians support our Second Amendment.

If you refuse to support Libertarians because of their stand on some other issue, prepare to lose your right to even speak out on your favorite issue. For when the guns are taken from us, the promised safe utopia will prove itself a lie and the remaining rights and privileges of the common man will die a death as bloody as necessary to ensure "peaceful" compliance with federal law.
-------
"I say a vote for the Democrats or Republicans is the ONLY wasted vote.... By buying into the rhetoric that there are only two parties worth voting for...you increase their power. And with it, you promote the watered-down freedoms and endless government growth that these two parties consisently vote for." -- Carla Howell, Chair, Libertarian Party of Massachusetts. (stress added)

Vote Libertarian - for a change.

Dennis
 
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