Libertarian … Yes / No … sell me one way or the other

Scott:

The following is from Harry Browne's 1996 LP nomination acceptance speech. The entire speech is on Harry's <a href="http://www.harrybrowne2000.org">web site.</a>


So on my first day in office, by Executive Order, I will personally:

* Pardon everyone who has been convicted on a federal, non-violent drug charge.

* Pardon everyone who has been convicted on a federal tax-evasion charge.

* Pardon everyone who has been convicted on any federal gun-control charge.

* Pardon anyone else who has been convicted of any kind of federal victimless crime.

* I will end federal affirmative action immediately. End all federal quotas, set- asides, preferential treatments, and other
discrimination practiced by the federal government.

* I will bring an immediate end to all asset- forfeiture cases, and initiate steps to make restitution to anyone whose property has
been impounded, frozen, or seized by the federal government.

* As Commander in Chief of the Armed Forces, I will quickly and completely bring all American troops back to America. Europe and Japan can pay for their own defense, and they can risk their own sons and daughters in their eternal squabbles. This alone will save billions of dollars a year in taxes, but -- more important -- it will save American lives.

* As Commander in Chief I will remove all American troops from under the command of the United Nations or any foreign power.

* Everything put into the Federal Register by previous Presidents can be taken out by this President. I will put a hold on regulatory
activities while my staff reviews the Constitutionality of all existing
regulations.

*And then I will break for lunch.

Sounds good to me. And Harry, if you're there... lunch is on me.


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How does it become a man to behave toward this American government to-day?
I answer, that he cannot without disgrace be associated with it.
--Thoreau, "Civil Disobedience"

[This message has been edited by Coinneach (edited May 18, 1999).]
 
Hell yes!!!

He's got my vote... I was considering Smith, but if Browne runs again I'll work for his campaign!
 
Scott,

First, thank you for asking such an honest question. Most Americans really don't give a damn anymore.

Ironically, I still think this is a question on which reasonable people can differ. For me, I chose to register, and generally vote Libertarian.

My thinking followed some of the logic already described. I came to believe that the Republicans are generally taking us to the same destination as the Democrats. Sure, there are some good Republicans. However, there are many more without spines, without a solid philosophical rudder, sometimes almost fascist in their thinking, and perfectly willing to initiate force against Americans that disagree with their perspectives. For example, I doubt they will ever admit that their 'Drug War' is a dismal failure akin to alcohol prohibition - personally, I think it plays a major role in our current, absurd national debates about violence and firearms.

I believe in freedom and personal responsibility. Generally, in absolute terms. Freedom in markets tends to produce the best results. What is in demand gets produced. Quality is required. The fittest prosper, and that tends to yield the best long-term trends and progress. And, if you initiate force against others, if you are irresponsible in your actions, then you must pay the piper. Perfect? No way. I simply believe it produces the best, most optimal result. And, it is essentially how this country began. What a coincidence.

An important consideration is to realize that all Libertarians are not the same - like Republicans and Democrats, there is room for people to differ within the party (Big L), and within the philosophy (Little l). So, when someone tells you 'those Libertarians' are just too radical, you might want to see what they think is so radical. Some people who are essentially anarchists may call themselves Libertarians / libertarians, and there are others, like me, who believe that some portions of government serve a useful purpose.

And, my vote is wasted, you say? I honestly don't see it that way. My vote was wasted when I voted for people who did not believe in freedom and personal responsibility. My vote was wasted when I selected the slimebag who wanted to destroy my freedoms in 50 years instead of 5 years. And, like free markets, I tend to believe my stand for freedom, liberty and personal responsbility can still have the proper effect.

If there are enough Americans who still believe in freedom, doing your best, personal responsibility, admiring success and so on, and if enough of them vote their conscience, then the Republicans will eventually have to move back to a Libertarian perspective in order to recapture those votes. That is generally how our parties work - they move back and forth in idealogy as the moods of the country change. Will my country be damaged in the meantime by more Democrats? Perhaps.

But, the drunk and the drug addict often have to hit bottom before they finally get their act together. For those fools in our culture that want to further damage our Constitution, our freedoms, our thirst for success ... well, they may very well get their wish. And then, the absolute bankruptcy of that perspective will be clearer for all to see ... just as Communism's failure became more evident with the fall of the U.S.S.R.

I am not optimistic. However, just as I owe it to my children to teach them about freedom and personal responsibility, and the 2nd Amendment and firearm use / safety, I owe it to them to live my life consistent with my beliefs. I believe in freedom and personal responsiblity. If I voted for anything less, I don't feel I could look into their eyes as adults and tell them I had done my best.

Every one of us makes this tough decision. I know we all hope that right prevails. And, I hope we don't have to 'hit bottom' in order to remember why the incredible experiment of 1776 was so wildly successful.

Regards from AZ.

[This message has been edited by Jeff Thomas (edited May 20, 1999).]
 
I have also become a member of the Libertarian party primarily because of 2nd Amendment concerns. However, in the booth I will cast my vote for anybody, regardless of political affiliation, who stands up for the right to keep and bear arms. Is my vote for a Libertarian candidate a "wasted vote"? How could it be so? If someone like "nralife" means that gun owners get f****d "later down the line" by a Republican candidate rather than "right now" by a Democratic candidate ...so what?!? And who the heck voted for Perot anyway? This guy would have taken your guys just as soon as Sick Willy.
 
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Ipeac(sp),

<<No, the Republicrats aren't as bad as we think; they're worse.>>
Your right a bunch of em are....you mean to say that all libertarians are the same?...

<<fubsy-gain national experience? do you mean learn to screw the people who voted you in?>>
.....I mean the kind of experience that it takes to run a country. The kind of experience that would enable who ever is the majority to get there agenda passed, not side tracked or have there base split by the opposing side--such as gun laws which fracture the base of a majority party and could cost the majority party and its electorate....
<< That kind of experience we can do without.>>
....I definitely agree that backstabbers need to have a little justice brought there way---but not at the expensive of shooting off my foot.
<< Besides, the system was set up to be run by citizen-statesmen, not professional politicians.>>
.....well thats what i remember being taught, but that was 200+ years ago, the demands on the national leadership were probably en0rmous for its day and that sort of ''casual government'', was most likely possible---Im not sure its appropriate today the complexitys of this time far outweigh 1776--that dosent mean I want to see a large government and laws passed so that politicians will be seen to be doing something, thats idiotic.


<<Let's bottom line this: until people start voting for third party candidates we are stuck with the status quo. Which means, we continue to lose rights. Brett was spot on in his analysis of the current political situation: the Repubs will continue to vote for gun control because they know there are enough folks out there who will continue to vote for them no matter what, because they are, "better than the Democrats.">>
.....I cant disagree completely with this opinion, I do think that if more conservative republicans are not put back in office what has occured will continue to occur, and is the reason Im searching elsewhere.

<<Let's all wait until someone else elects a third party candidate, yeah, that'll work.>>
.....ok, lets *bottom line this*, through disgust and frustration the normal republican base splits off and votes for a libertarian president (sounds like perot eh?),the democrats capture or retain a majority in the house and senate, the republicans lose, what? (how many seats could ya take?....say 25 in the house and 15 in the senate, now the democrats have a veto proof majority and the experience of leading in our congress so they control all legislation and committe appointments and dont forget the press will welcome back to power there friends.....so all legislation and the outcome will be controlled by the democrats....ok still further, the libertarians were able to secure a viable presidential canidate who won and has secured the presidency, so what can he do rule by executive order....thats anti the libertarians position eh?, he certainley is not going to get his legislation or bills passed, how is he going to do that? Or he can rule by executive order cause what...hes the good guy?.................

I dont want yall to misunderstand me...I despise this behavoir from politicians and I am looking at the libertarians, Im not convinced that their platform will even come close to getting them elected, and once their, what can they really do?
fubsy.

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"The only good bureaucrat is one with pistol at his head. Put it in his hand and it's goodbye to the Bill of Rights." H.L. Mencken
 
Scott,

Answer your own question. Read the Declaration of Independence and the Bill of Rights.
Note the limitations clearly spelled out on government power throughout the document.

Now read the Tenth Amendment (the "capstone" of the Bill of Rights): The powers NOT DELEGATED to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or TO THE PEOPLE.

Now ask yourself; Does this sound like the country I live in? If it doesn't then vote Libertarian because they are the only party with a clear intent to return us to a free Constitutional society - to remove all laws that infringe on civil, property and States Rights.

The Republicans are merely holding the line (when it suits them) and a defensive battle is a losing one.

If you want to reverse the tide, vote Libertarian.



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Keith
The Bears and Bear Maulings Page: members.xoom.com/keithrogan
 
I am very grateful for all the in put so far. Please keep it coming.

I have not found anything major so far in the Libertarian platform that I disagree with. Much there that I strongly support.

I have often in the past held to the “Wasted vote or damaging vote” line of thinking when considering the less then perfect Republican Party (just as many here have) when compared to a more principled 3rd.

This discussion is causing me to reexamine that argument.

First off … is that the best that we Republicans can come up with? “Vote for us cause the 3rd party can’t win and we’re better then the Democrats (sometimes)”. Think about it, that is pathetic! We have put a majority of Republicans in office and kept them there for some time … yet I am totally disappointed in their performance. Look at what they have squandered at our expense. There has to be a better reason then that…
 
I have long considered myself a Libertarian but must admit that I have voted Repub as a defensive measure (I am now becoming more idealistic and realizing that a war can't be won by fighting defensively).

Generally, the Libertarian party embraces both sides of the extreme as far as liberal/conservatives go, don't they?
I think that the Libertarian party is real close to being able to get a huge following on liberal campuses from disgruntled youth who are willing to put up with other people's differences in order to get some more of their own freedom back..

It seems that the basic philosophy is: "you leave me alone, and I will leave you alone". Such as: just because you don't believe in drug use, you can just not do it, but leave me alone about it, and I will leave you alone about the things that I don't like, but are within your freedom (like guns). Libertarians seem to follow the belief that freedom workes both ways and means freedom for all, so sometimes people will do things that you don't like, but in order to keep YOUR freedom, you have to support theirs even if you don't like it. So I won't jump on my neighbors back for smoking pot, and he can shuttup about the fact that he doesn't like my guns.
That is cool with me. I see this as a free country, and as long as others let me do whatever the he!! I want within my rights, then I will leave them alone to do whatever they want within theirs, even if I don't like it.

I really thought this thread would discuss more about what the Libertarians believe in rather than arguain about how to vote.
How about some links to sites that explain where the Libertarian party stands on issues and philosophies?

thaddeus
 
thaddeus brings up a good point:

The Cato Institute - http://www.cato.org/ . To my mind, essentially the think tank of libertarian philosophy. Even if you don't agree with libertarian philosophy, reading their take on things will make you reexamine your own premises. Great stuff.

The Libertarian Party - http://www.lp.org/ . I've honestly never spent much time here! One problem with libertarians is that we are not the 'joiners' that Democrats are! ;)

For a counterpoint (that I generally find inane), see http://world.std.com/~mhuben/libindex.html . I only ask that you examine their arguments closely - I find most to be superficial, and not able to stand up to careful consideration. Makes me recall a Wall Street Journal article a year or two ago which stated that something like 40% of Americans have libertarian ideals, but most obviously fail to vote their conscience. The author of this web site apparently believes he can dismiss the philosophy by dropping trite sound bites. FWIW.

Laissez-Faire Books - http://www.lfb.org/ . A very good resource, and a very popular source of serious and very helpful reading.

A web directory for libertarianism - http://alumni.umbc.edu/~akoont1/tmh/libert2.html . Just happened across this.


I will add this - I think learning about and growing to consider and then accept libertarian philosophy requires a bit of mental work. It is easy to 'feel their pain' and 'do it for the children' without a lot of effort. It is tougher to try and understand human behavior, and grow to appreciate the irony that freedom works ... and, it works much better than central planning, whether that central planning is done in Moscow, or Washington, D.C.
 
Good call, thaddeus, and well timed. :-)
Earlier in this thread I listed a link to Vin Suprynowizc's columns; they are excellent, and a good way to learn more about the "small l" libertarian philosophy. In addition, Vin has a pile of libertarian links on his page. Also try www.self-gov.org for another good libertarian website with the "world's smallest political quiz".

Who is a libertarian?
"A libertarian is a person who believes that no one has the right, under any circumstances, to initiate force against another human being, or to advocate or delegate its initiation. Those who act consistently with this principle are libertarians, whether they realize it or not. Those who fail to act consistently with it are not libertarians, regardless of what they may claim." That comes from the Libertarian Enterprise, an ezine at www.webleyweb.com/tle/ led by L. Neil Smith, a long-time champion of civil rights in general, and the right to own firearms in particular. El Neil pulls no punches, and is frequently hilarious.

Who else has some good links?



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"The only good bureaucrat is one with pistol at his head. Put it in his hand and it's goodbye to the Bill of Rights." H.L. Mencken


[This message has been edited by Ipecac (edited May 20, 1999).]

[This message has been edited by Ipecac (edited May 20, 1999).]
 
I struggled for two years with this very same question before I decided to vote Libertarian. I regarded the Repubs as the lesser of 2 evils, but as someone pointed out to me, a vote for the lesser of 2 evils is still a vote for evil.
The Dems want to put gov't in our lives on certain issues, the Reps want to put gov't in our lives in other issues. I want a candidate whose desire is to take gov't out of our lives unless we break the law. I consider a wasted vote to be one cast for a candidate who doesn't represent my best interests in ALL areas.
The Libertarian philosophy:
It is immoral to -initiate- the use of force against anyone for any reason.
Laws should exist as punishment for those whose actions
A)cause harm to others
B)deprive others of their private property
C)infringe upon the rights of others.
Any action which doesn't fit one of these categories should be legal, and no business of the government or anyone else.
My life, and the fruits of my labor, are mine to do with as I please. I don't need the Nanny State telling me what is or isn't good or right for me, and as long as we keep putting Republicrats or Demicans into office, we'll have a Nanny State.

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Shoot straight regards, Richard
 
Ipecac,

That L. Neal Smith link is probably the best education for somebody wishing to look at Libertarian idea's and ideals. Good job posting that - I hope inquiring minds check it out.

Libertarianism is about indvidual freedom. I like to think the 10th amendment sums up the whole bizness - if express permission isn't granted in the Constitution, then government can't do it - leave me alone!

When government passes laws "for our own good" it costs more and generally fails to achieve a goal.
If air bags cut deaths in auto accidents, then let insurance companies give breaks to people who install air bags.
When government mandates something, it generally costs a fortune and then they have to create or expand a bureau to oversee the new legislation which costs even more, etc, etc.
Every dollar spent by the government is "end-use" money. It doesn't create business, increase wealth or help the economy except in limited ways.
Every tax dollar freed up from government is turned over a thousand times in the private economy.
Thats why a tax break of 1% creates a huge economic surge - what if we cut government (and taxes) by 50 or 75%?
Imagine a life not only free of government interference but one where you could keep and spend all of that money they take?

Thats Libertarianism.




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Keith
The Bears and Bear Maulings Page: members.xoom.com/keithrogan
 
Now, for some practical realism:

1) There ain't gonna be a messiah, i.e. one candidate that will fix this mess in one term.
2) Politics isn't about public service anymore...its about a well paying career and power. Like it or not..90% of politicos are whores who hold us in contempt.
3) Both major parties spend tax money like water and compete to spend it more than the other ones. They believe they are entitled to piss away our money anyway they wish and that they are entitled to as much of it as they wish.
4) Fiscal responsibility? Tax reform? Social Security?....what happened? Those are mere sound bite issues, nice sounding vote getters around electon time. Seriously...has anything really been done?
5) Belief in principles....cut thru the adjectives in Party platforms and look at the underlying principles of said parties. Who is similar and who is different?
6) Are you likely to get the candidate you want from a Party that is fundamentally the same as the Party you dislike?
7) The only power we really have over a Party is fear....they both want to win, and if one Party starts losing big time because voters abandoned it, only then will that Party begin to entertain the concept of changing platform. And how long will this change last?
8) Think long and hard....based on Party principles, which Party is less likely to be influenced by "special interests" (big business, big gov't types, globalists)?
9) Do you sincerely believe that "all men are created equal"....or some are more equal than others?
10) Whether you believe in God, a higher power or mere biological accident....is your 70+ yr life your personal property, or does it belong to some ruling body that is entitled to regulate almost anything you do? And is this body entitled to extort your work, your intellect and your thoughts? Is this body entitled to determine how you and your children are educated.
11) Based on Party principles...which one has the least compatibility with elitism, lying, distortion of facts and manipulation?

Now....what do you want and where are you likely to find the leader you want?

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"Quis custodiet ipsos custodes"



[This message has been edited by DC (edited May 20, 1999).]
 
as usual DC you're right. but whose fault is it that it's arrived at the place it has? why of course, it's ours, mine included. we've set on our collective butts and watch all this take place. question now is, what the hell do we do about it. revolution? it's kind of radical, and i don't think the people that are concerned are ready for that yet. other than that what are the options? somebody please tell me something that will put us back where we belong, in the home of the brave and the land of the free. come on damnit, someone tell me there's a way!!!

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fiat justitia



[This message has been edited by longhair (edited May 20, 1999).]
 
Longhair...

Look at it this way: say your wife cheated on you, you catch her...she begs and pleads and promises to never do it again, so you forgive her. A few months later, she does it again, and you forgive her.....the cycle repeats...when do you get fed up, realize that she won't change and toss her butt out?
We have been constantly cheated on and lied to!!!

I reregistered and changed Party affiliation to Libertarian....photocopied it and sent it to my county, state and the Republican National Party. Now, if enough people do that they WILL take notice...afterall, Demos will vote for real Demos not faux Demos. Thus, this will be the equivalent to Microsoft laying off 50% of its employees. Repubs will then have a choice...either accept extinction and be absorbed into the Demo Party or re-vamp back to the Rep Party that it used to be.
And trust me, the Demos would also be scared unto death, even foreign countries would freak out. Imagine that magnitude of American voter dissatisfaction?
Last Pres. election only around 42% of eligible voters did vote, and Clinton won by around 49%...translating to roughly 22% of eligible voters.
No more accomodation or compromise...we go on the offensive. If they want to destroy this country and remake it as a vassal to gov't, let it be out in the open and in the light.

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"Quis custodiet ipsos custodes"
 
longhair, there is a way to get back there. But, it took many years for it to become as screwed up as it is. It will take many years to come back. The longest journey starts with a single step, and our first step has to be making clear that enough is enough ... and working to change the course of this ship.

For me, that means voting Libertarian / libertarian, reading and learning more about this more logical philosophy, and discussing politics with family, friends, co-workers and neighbors. And, with my friends on TFL.

[This message has been edited by Jeff Thomas (edited May 20, 1999).]
 
Keith, thanks and I agree. The Libertarian Enterprise and at El Neil's own homepage at: http://www.webleyweb.com/lneil/
are where I learned much of what I know about libertarianism.

DC, excellent posts. I'm proud to say a good friend of mine has switched his party affiliation from Repub to Libertarian, at a gun show. I don't know how confident I am that we can turn all this around at the ballot box, but I do know that this is the only way to try to do it.

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Voting libertarian means never having to say you're sorry.
 
DC, i've been through the 1st part of your reply,in my 1st marriage. question, how long do i put up w/ it? once, no second chance!!!

I'll can put up w/ alot of things, but putting up w/ a liar ain't one of them. i guess that's why i get so upset about all the things going on. lie, lies ,lies, everywhere i turn lies and mis/dis information.
the repub's, nra, demo's, etc.grrrrrrr i better quit now!

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fiat justitia
 
I'd rather switch than fight (with the Republicans)!

I've voted Libertarian in the last couple of elections. Too bad they can't get elected, but I think it is better to vote your conscience instead of for the lesser of two evils.

Ron Paul switched from the Libertarian Party to the Republican Party without compromising his principals so he could win. Wish we had 434 others like him in the House!
 
It is fairly well known that voters tend to have opinions on issues that run in clusters, including varying degrees of importance on any particular issue. In the bulk, mixing all the issues, they tend to form a bumpy, somewhat dynamic bell curve.

Other countries with multi-party systems and coalition governments have parties that capitalize on each "bump" in the bell curve, customizing their message for those particular voters.

We should quit worrying about who becomes president, and more about who is senator, representative, state senator, state rep. They are the ones who write the legislation. If the major party executive who signs it needs their vote to make it work, he will add enough features to make it attractive to them.

We need to nominate and elect a sufficient number of representatives to become an influential third party that can become the swing vote in the house. The Libertarians are prime examples of this, but any independents who will pull together on 2nd amendment issues will work. I recommend reading "The Citizen's Guide to Fighting Government" to find out how to help a political campaign succeed.

Here in Louisiana, we got a very pro-gun governor precisely because a huge number of us mobilized and volunteered for his campaign . He was the dark horse candidate who won. We need to do the same in congress.

For those interested in more background on political systems, read on.

In a two party, majority wins all system, this distribution forces the two parties to move to the middle, trying to find that peak that corresponds to the most votes. Because the bell curve can be influenced by current events, the media, and propoganda, the parties also try to sway the curve in their favor and against their opponent, maintaining enough difference to be distinguishable, without being too far out on the curve.

If the Republicans seem to resemble the Democrats more and more, its because they haven't been able to use propoganda effectively to sway the curve. They are forced to move their platform closer to the competition, which does them no good because most people then see them as insincere.
 
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