Lever vs. Bolt

This isn't primarily a matter of opinion. It's a matter of verifiable, scientific facts. If you compare analogous lever gun cartridges to their recoil-equivalent bolt gun counterparts, you'll keep seeing the same thing over and over again. The bolt guns outperform the lever guns at long range, but the levers outperform the bolts up close.

Take for example the .348 Winchester vs. the .35 Whelen. Same recoil, same muzzle velocity, same energy, 1/100th different diameter etc. They're interior ballistic twins. But the .348 can run a Woodleigh flatnose weldcore, whereas the hardest hitting you can do in the Whelen (assuming typical feed geometry) is a bonded spire point or maybe roundnose. Now, anyone who has any knowledge of those respective bullet options will tell you the same thing: the spire point will retain energy further, but the flat nose will give a bigger, straighter wound channel and handle an initial bone hit (eg. shoulder shot) better.

The .348 Winchester will also give you about twice as fast a follow-up shot.

The above is all science. Now, it's purely opinion if I say you should carry a lever gun because of that. You may not care. You may want to carry a bolt because it was your Granddad's gun or because it's Tuesday or you want the extra range or that's what the cool kids are shooting. Great. All perfectly valid reasons.
 
Incidentally, for those getting excited about the .30-30, there really is no bolt gun caliber to compare it to. Which is remarkable, if you think about it, since the .30-30 is perfectly tuned to one of the quintessential applications in American hunting - deer at reasonable range. About the closest the bolt guys can offer up is .243 Winchester or .260 Remington or 6.5x55 Swede, which have the same short vs. long range comparison to .30-30 that I've described previously.

7.62x39R is a pretty big step down ballistics-wise, but I guess that's in the running too although there aren't many guns and the feed situation is sketchy.

It's really remarkable that after all these years there is no short action .30 cal bolt offering tuned to deer. I guess they don't hunt deer in bolt land :D
 
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But the .348 can run a Woodleigh flatnose weldcore,...
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And the Whelen can run the 250gr Woodleigh weldcore RN. And looking at the two side by side there isn't much difference other than a SMALL flat spot on the .348 bullet where the .35 bullet is curved. The Woodleigh weldcore .348 is NOT a large flatpoint bullet. While there is a slight noticeable edge to the impact performance of the large bore flat points, the ones that are essentially clyinders with a rounded edge, the difference between small flat point and a round nose of approximately the same size is inconsequential.

If you have science demonstrating otherwise, I'll happily look at it.

Incidentally, for those getting excited about the .30-30, there really is no bolt gun caliber to compare it to.
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There was. It was the .30 Remington. IDENTICAL to the .30-30 in performance, it used the same load data. Rimless case, used in Remington bolt, pump, and semi auto rifles before WWII. And it used a pointed bullet in the Remington tube magazine fed pump (model 14 /141) and in the model 8 /81 autoloaders.

Remington had a line of cartridges that duplicated the Winchester line in .25, 30, & .32 caliber. Also the .35 Remington, something Winchester did not have.

And while we're talking about "lever" cartridges, what about lever guns that shoot "bolt" gun cartridges? Frankly I don't see how one can claim one being better over 200yds and one better under when you are shooting the exact same round!! Explain to me how a BLR in .308 Win fits in there. Or a .30-06?
 
My hunting Buddy I grew up with used a Savage 340 in 30-30. He only stopped using it because his area is shotgun only now. I have a 99 Savage in .243, .260. and .358. Now that I am thinking about it, The area where I grew up was mostly pump and lever for deer. Bolt actions took a while to move out of the varmit gun stage. I think all the cheap surplus guns helped that.
 
And the Whelen can run the 250gr Woodleigh weldcore RN. And looking at the two side by side there isn't much difference other than a SMALL flat spot on the .348 bullet where the .35 bullet is curved. The Woodleigh weldcore .348 is NOT a large flatpoint bullet. While there is a slight noticeable edge to the impact performance of the large bore flat points, the ones that are essentially clyinders with a rounded edge, the difference between small flat point and a round nose of approximately the same size is inconsequential.

If you have science demonstrating otherwise, I'll happily look at it.
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There's a BIG difference between those two bullets. The first is entrance wound closure. A flat point bullet "punches" the hide like a paper punch - it leaves a hole that can't close up because chunk of hide is driven down the wound channel. Round nose bullets stretch and "pop" the hide, and the resulting wound often closes without much blood. For bullets like those that may not make an exit wound, having at least some blood to follow if things go bad is a nice thing.

The second and more important issue is bone impact. Round nose bullets are deflected by bone. Flat nose bullets retain their trajectory much better because the sharp corner starts a fracture in the bone and lets the bullet keep going. This is why the trend in newer design dangerous game solids and dangerous game expanders have at least a small flat point and often more than that. Look at the hornady DGS and DGX profiles for an example ofthe small flat. The woodleigh hydrostatic solids, Northfork, and Barnes bullets are examples of big flats.

This has been tested a nauseum on game animals with repeatable results and basically all the ammo makers are in agreement, although there are still plenty of older round designs out there. As far as I'm concerned, that's plenty of scientific evidence for me.

And while we're talking about "lever" cartridges, what about lever guns that shoot "bolt" gun cartridges?
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They behave like inaccurate, fast bolt guns. But they still retain the basic bolt vs. lever relationship - inaccuracy only matters at long range, and speed only matters at short range since at long range lining up the shot takes much longer than cycling the action.
 
150 30-30
2,390 ft/s (730 m/s (2,580 J)
160 6,5x55
2,559 ft/s (780 m/s) (3,072 J

and a laserlike trajectory with way better bullets

one of the most inherently accurate calibres
 
There's a BIG difference between those two bullets.
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Not that I can see in the pictures of the bullets. Woodleigh Weldcore .348 & .35 cal bullets are shown on Midway. They are essentially identical in shape, other than the small flat tip.

This is not the same as the large difference in area such as found in a 158gr RN vs SWC pistol bullet. Not even close.

And while I won't dispute the way a large flat point behaves in tissue and bone, the bullet you specified as your example isn't one of them.
(unless Midway is showing the wrong pic of the bullet, what you named, and what you are describing are not the same thing.)
 
30 WCF vs 7mm Mauser

Actually, the original 7x57mm Mauser cartridge was similar in performance to a modern 30-30 Winchester with 170 grain bullets Probably, in Pancho Villa's day, both were on the same battlefield. I wonder which was the better weapon? Maybe having a bayonnette made the Mauser the better of the two?

Lever or Bolt, both have their merits; the correct choice is: Both, of course!
 
Not that I can see in the pictures of the bullets. Woodleigh Weldcore .348 & .35 cal bullets are shown on Midway. They are essentially identical in shape, other than the small flat tip.
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It's the flat tip that makes the difference vs. round nose.

The weldcore round nose is the best .35 Whelen bullet I'm aware of for heavy/dangerous game, but it's still a notch behind the .348 flatpoint.
 
give me a remington pump, fast, removable magizine(pointed bullets), low scope mount, no shoulder dismount to shoot and in calibers that will take any animal on earth. eastbank.
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Neither a lever nor a bolt action require a shoulder dismount to shoot or to chamber a fresh cartridge.
 
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