stagpanther
New member
I said levers are sexier than bolts--and still think that's true. : )
Lever vs. Bolt
- Thread starter DeadEyeJack
- Start date
stubbicatt
New member
I dunno. I recently acquired an 1888 manufactured Winchester Single Shot Rifle in 45-70 which, in my eye at least, is the ideal "crossover." Robust action/receiver, short lever that does not foul the ground in prone, chambered for a neat period cartridge, with a single set trigger. Too bad about that recoil! 
I've seen fellas get some pretty stellar accuracy out of these old rifles loaded with the "holy black", rivaling many bolt actioned rifles, and while I am unaware of any particular tests, I suspect JMB's first patent long gun action is as strong, or stronger, than 2 lug, turn bolt actions commonly available.
To my way of seeing things, it is an attractive piece with a reputation for good accuracy, with a genuine antique provenance, that can still be enjoyed in the 21st century.
I've seen fellas get some pretty stellar accuracy out of these old rifles loaded with the "holy black", rivaling many bolt actioned rifles, and while I am unaware of any particular tests, I suspect JMB's first patent long gun action is as strong, or stronger, than 2 lug, turn bolt actions commonly available.
To my way of seeing things, it is an attractive piece with a reputation for good accuracy, with a genuine antique provenance, that can still be enjoyed in the 21st century.
Possibly, other than the steel its made from, which might be the deciding factor.
Guns like the Winchester Hi Wall /low wall, and the modern Browning B78 and the Ruger No1s and No. 3s are usually classed as single shots, but they are actually lever action. The action is operated by a lever.
stagpanther
New member
I never saw John Wayne in a western using an M1--what's up with that?
Ok, I'll throw in my 2 cents. I am an obligate southpaw, and I thus loathe using right handed bolt action rifles, they are just backwards for me. Since left handed bolts aren't all that common, I grew up using autoloaders and lever actions. Since I don't particularly need the extra power/range that bolt actions bring to the table, I find that lever actions fill the bill for me.
Outside 200 yards, you'll have a lot more luck with a bolt than with a lever. Higher BC bullets + faster muzzle velocities equals flatter trajectories with far less windage. Windage is what causes misses for competent shooters at long range.
Inside 200 yards, levers with tubular magazines are flat out better for all serious applications. They're about twice as fast, tend to have cartridges with better terminal ballistics, and their downsides in terms of accuracy, lower peak pressure and allowable bolt thrust don't really come into play.
It's worth noting the VAST majority of rifle work occurs inside 200 yards.
Inside 200 yards, levers with tubular magazines are flat out better for all serious applications. They're about twice as fast, tend to have cartridges with better terminal ballistics, and their downsides in terms of accuracy, lower peak pressure and allowable bolt thrust don't really come into play.
It's worth noting the VAST majority of rifle work occurs inside 200 yards.
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No citation needed. Big bore cartridges and flat point bullets (especially wide mepalts with sharp corners) have better terminal ballistics than spire points and round noses.
In other words, there's a VERY good reason they won't let you hunt cape buffalo with a .338 Lapua even though there's plenty of case capacity & energy there.
In other words, there's a VERY good reason they won't let you hunt cape buffalo with a .338 Lapua even though there's plenty of case capacity & energy there.
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What cartridges are you talking about? The only "big bore" tube magazine lever guns I have ever seen are .45-70, .444 Marlin or .45 LC. While the first 2 are certainly hard hitting, the vast majority of tube-mag lever guns are NOT either of those two calibers, but good-old .30-30WCF. You got me curious, so I looked at the lever action rifles category on Gunbroker, filtering by cartridge, there are currently 154 guns available in .30-30, 17 in .35 Rem, 22 in .45-70 and 3 in .444 Marlin.
So lever action tube magazine guns "tend to be" .30-30, which by no stretch of the imagination has "better terminal ballistics" than damn near any .30 centerfire rifle cartridge designed since the Spanish–American War.
Equal terminal ballistics maybe, to some, certainly adequate for 200 yard deer hunting, but no way "better".
To make the claim that tube-mag lever guns "tend to have cartridges with better terminal ballistics" is absurd.
So lever action tube magazine guns "tend to be" .30-30, which by no stretch of the imagination has "better terminal ballistics" than damn near any .30 centerfire rifle cartridge designed since the Spanish–American War.
Equal terminal ballistics maybe, to some, certainly adequate for 200 yard deer hunting, but no way "better".
To make the claim that tube-mag lever guns "tend to have cartridges with better terminal ballistics" is absurd.
You're missing a few. Might want to read up on the .45-90 WCF, .50-110 WCF, .450 Alaskan, .50 Alaskan, .475 Turnbull etc. All 5 of those are dangerous game type stompers when chambered in a modern steel 1886 or a model 71. The two WCF chamberings I could buy a gun for today. The others are easy to order and they all have factory brass.
If you want to move down a power level, there's .45-70, .444 marlin, .450 marlin, .405 winchester, .348 winchester, etc. There are 348 WCFs are all over gunbroker - I see like 10 of them. And of course a million Marlin 1895Gs.
Lever guns will go as powerful as as is practical (greater then 5000 ft-lbs if you want), and flat point bullets work better than round noses and FAR better than spire points - hence why pretty much everyone has gone to flat noses on their dangerous game double bullets.
You'll note I never said anything about .30-30 - that's you projecting
If you want to move down a power level, there's .45-70, .444 marlin, .450 marlin, .405 winchester, .348 winchester, etc. There are 348 WCFs are all over gunbroker - I see like 10 of them. And of course a million Marlin 1895Gs.
Lever guns will go as powerful as as is practical (greater then 5000 ft-lbs if you want), and flat point bullets work better than round noses and FAR better than spire points - hence why pretty much everyone has gone to flat noses on their dangerous game double bullets.
You'll note I never said anything about .30-30 - that's you projecting
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You know what, I messed up the numbers on Gunbroker. I searched for lever action, then filtered on the lever action rifles category. This time I skipped the search and just browsed the lever gun category. There are actually a lot more lever guns that I posted, but the proportions are not changed much. There are still ~6 times as many .30-30s available (1040) as the most common of the rounds you listed, .45-70 (178). The others you listed there are 1 or 2 of each for your dangerous game loads, and a total of 95 combined for the four other "down a tier" rounds you mentioned. So all the rounds you listed, there are about 280 guns total on Gunbroker at the moment, compared to 1040 .30-30s.
You said:
Let me fix it for you:
That I agree with.
You said:
This is simply not true. Levers with tubular magazines tend to be .30-30. Full stop. More powerful rounds certainly are available, that I am not arguing, but most lever guns are not chambered in them.
Let me fix it for you:
That I agree with.
stagpanther
New member
I've seen a couple of the 45-90's rifles and the--the cartridges look like long range ICBMs. How good could a plain ol 30-30 be? Fellow "gun nerd" here in Maine likes old style and seeing what they can do. http://www.downeastgunworks.com/long-distance-30-30/
I like both.
Like most deer hunters I killed my first deer with a lever action 30-30 so there is a soft spot in my heart for a lever action. They are fun to shoot. I have a 94AE 30-30 with peep sights just for plinking, its cheap, accurate and dependable.
With all that said, I will take a bolt gun hunting any day over a lever. Its a simple accurate platform. I like being able to reload with an extra mag if needed than feeding cartridges into a tube. They will take a beating too.
For me, the bolt gun is like the SA revolver, simple, tough, reliable......
Like most deer hunters I killed my first deer with a lever action 30-30 so there is a soft spot in my heart for a lever action. They are fun to shoot. I have a 94AE 30-30 with peep sights just for plinking, its cheap, accurate and dependable.
With all that said, I will take a bolt gun hunting any day over a lever. Its a simple accurate platform. I like being able to reload with an extra mag if needed than feeding cartridges into a tube. They will take a beating too.
For me, the bolt gun is like the SA revolver, simple, tough, reliable......
A bold "flat out" statement of OPINION, the truth of which, if any, relies entirely on the speaker's definitions of "better" and "serious".
If its your opinion, say so, and we'll be fine. If you present it as fact, be prepared to back it up. A single verifiable exception renders a blanket statement null & void.
Yes, the very good reason is that hunting cape buffalo is sport hunting. Sports have rules, set by the governing body, in this case, the govts of nations which allow cape buffalo hunting. There may be exceptions, but as far as I know, African cape buffalo hunting requires at least a .37 caliber rifle in a few places and a .40 caliber or larger in others.
ME, MV, etc., may be the rational behind the rules, and a cartridge might match or even exceed those numbers, but if it not covered in the written rule, you can't use it. Their game, their rules.
I'd like to point out, again, that sweeping blanket statements, such as "lever actions this..." and "bolt actions that...", are covering ALL guns and cartridges found in the action class. And since both actions can be found in many of the same cartridges (and if you wish to be totally accurate, "lever" guns can be found in ALL the "bolt gun" cartridges) blanket statements made about the cartridges are essentially irrelevant.
It is simply not valid to look at one, (or three) examples of a particular rifle designs and apply their characteristics to the entire class of guns.
Here's my criteria, I'm speaking of manually operated guns, where the barrel remains inline with the action when the action is open. If it uses a lever to open, its a lever action. If it uses a bolt handle to open, its a bolt action.
it an be a repeater, or a single shot. Rimfire or centerfire. Rifled or smoothbore. Everything else is an additional factor, allowing for further refinement of the classification.
And, if you are only interested in guns in current production, make a point of mentioning that, too, please.