Lets talk tactical shotguns

The Winchester Model 12 can also be "slam-fired", where the trigger is held rearward and the gun is pumped as fast as you can. Each time the bolt close, the gun goes off. Sort of like fanning a SA revolver, but in 12 gauge! :D

It might not be that useful, but the boys who used them in the trenches could put out devastating walls of buckshot that would reap paths of annhiliation through enemies caught en defelade. You could imagine what 7 rounds of 9 pellet buckshot discharged almost immediatly into the ranks could have done.

That's 63 .33 caliber lead balls moving at 1100 FPS or more towards your direction all in about 2 seconds. These trench shotguns reaped horrible devastation on the enemy, and was equally devastating to his morale.
 
I have wondered how accurately slam firing delivered and I doubt that anyone who fired into those trenches is around to tell us about what may be romanticized history.
 
I have wondered how accurately slam firing delivered and I doubt that anyone who fired into those trenches is around to tell us about what may be romanticized history.
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Well against a group of crowded enemy soldiers, and in close quarters, the accuracy wasn't a big deal. This was when the slam fire was used, during ambushes and surprise assaults where a devastating amount of firepower was needed. I will admit with 2 3/4" 9 pellet 00 buckshot and slam-firing at "max volume" I've actually experienced some muzzle rise just like from an automatic weapon while doing this, and it sounds like an automatic weapon too! :D

*BOOM! BOOM! BOOM! BOOM! BOOM! BOOM! BOOM!*

It's great fun really!
 
Buy a used 1187. It will be well worth your money. Why buy another pump? i mean seriously, a pump is a pump no matter how you figure it.

There are plenty of used semi auto shotguns for sub $600. It wont buy a benelli, but it will buy a 1100 or 1187 and a speed load gate for it.



DO NOT BUY A CZ 712! I literally had one fire out of battery. Its a cheap gun made with cheap metal that is NOT made to be shot very often.
 
Great if you actually make it to the other side's trench, but I suppose that is why it is called a trench gun. I still wonder how a decent pump would do in tests against a slam firing trench gun
 
Mark, could you offer any insight on the CZ 712 'Practical'?
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The CZ712 was not "designed" for 3Gun, it is "marketed" for 3Gun. The operating system is a copy of the SLP, but not done with anywhere near the quality. Pistol grips and collapsible stocks on a 3Gun shotgun...not so much. Sure Taran runs a pistol grip, but he is also one of the top weakhand loaders, and pistol grips with TWinS loading...no bueno, same for collapsible stocks.

The CZ712 needs quite a bit of refitting and tuning to make them run, and then your acceptable operating window is going to be about 1/2 dram equivalent or less. The receiver is too soft and the slop crops up after only a few thousand rounds. I've run 2.5 to MAX dram loads this year. There have been groups of guys that really push the CZ712s, as well as 1100s and 930s...fact is, they won't last long term. After a year, you see these "huge proponents" show up with a M2, VersaMax or SLP. When you buy a $500 shotgun and then have to put $500 into it to make it run, and a lot of that is closely held tricks and tips, why bother? The Stoeger M3000 is the only "budget" shotgun worthy of even messing with.

Lets face the facts...3Gun is not cheap, and unreliable gear makes it more expensive, not less. If you only want to shoot a few local matches a year, then fine, a pump with an extension will be okay. If majors, and practice are in your plans, you have to buy a durable long term platform, or buy a new shotgun every year.
 
Not sure what the complaint about the Remington 1100 is, exactly.
Folks have been using them hard for trap, skeet and sporting clays for decades.
Make that generations.
Maybe they don't hold up being thrown into barrels?
 
I am looking to spend $600 or less, so I assume its going to be pumps only. ( I would kill for a Benelli M4).
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http://www.gunbroker.com/All/BI.aspx?Keywords=beretta+1201

This is about your price range. NOS apparently. I have one for my HD shotgun and it's a great gun for what you want to do. A poor mans Benelli M1. They list it as 5 rounds, but they are 6+1+1.

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Not sure what the complaint about the Remington 1100 is, exactly.
Folks have been using them hard for trap, skeet and sporting clays for decades.
Make that generations.
Maybe they don't hold up being thrown into barrels?
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The complaint is that unless you baby them, they will eventually fail. A steady diet of target loads with 2 or 3 rounds in the gun, no problem. 30 rounds in 40 seconds, with bird, slugs and buck, from 8 to 10 round tubes...they won't last running that mix for 3 or 4 thousand rounds a year, often going 500 plus rounds between cleanings.
 
Ah, thanks for the reply.
Never used one that way, only for the usual shotgun sports.
Although I did use a plain ole' Mossberg 500 for plenty of side matches at USPSA shoots, that closely resembled 3 gun use.
Never a problem and it's not supposed to be top quality, either.
Do the ones you mentioned as inferior for 3 gun generally give notice, or do they just fail in the middle of a stage?
 
Do the ones you mentioned as inferior for 3 gun generally give notice, or do they just fail in the middle of a stage?
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In most cases, it is a few FTFs in a match, then a few FTFs a stage. JMPros for instance, will usually run okay for a few thousand rounds, typically after a good break-in with a case of high brass. Then they start to go south with double feeds, an FTF per magazine tube. I do know a few guys who have more time than money and only shoot 2 or 3 matches a year...they decided to get JMPros and do all the tinkers. At 300-400 rounds a year, they should get a good 6 or 7 years out of them. At 400 rounds a month, not a good idea.

1100s and 11-87s, they basically lock open after every shot and the force of the shell from the magazine tube is what releases the carrier. So when you go from 2 or 3 shells in the magazine with good spring force, they work fairly well. Make that spring twice as long and increase the mass it moves by 4 or 5 times...the operating window narrows considerably. Shell surge as the tube capacity is diminished becomes an issue, and FTFs start. To keep that from being an issue, increase spring force right? Well then the shells from full hit the stamped metal parts harder, they deform faster and a different type of FTFs start up. Now we add a loading spoon to overcome the lifter release issue...more weight on the carrier, and springs, so they wear out faster too. When we look at opening up the loading port, that also has some danger areas and even then, they just don't load as smooth, thus slower, than the other options. If those stamped parts in the trigger group get fatigued to failure, then it is a down and out circumstance. Sure, the 1100 with the 2 or 3 shells capacity has been a workhorse on the clay targets fields. I ran 1100s in 3Gun for about 6 years, and I kept a spare gun ready, and I maintained them well, as it was the platform I already had and I would not buy a Benelli. Flat out, the 1100 just was not worth the time and effort. Even from a dollars perspective, my VersaMax is much cheaper to run.

If the OP was just considering Clay sports and a bit of bird hunting, then sure, I would toss the 1100s into the mix. I still have an 11-87 3" I use for waterfowl, but it gets like maybe 50 rounds a year. It will surely be running fine when it gets passed on to one of my boys.
 
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So, when guns are used as the designers intended, all is well.
Otherwise not so good.
Like entering a reliable sturdy mule in a horse race.
Good info to know.
Thanks again.
This morning, the Walmart flyer had Versa Max on sale for $860.
Quite a discount.
 
So, when guns are used as the designers intended, all is well. Otherwise not so good.
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That goes for most things, but with autoloading shotguns, usually true. That said, the designer of the M2, M4, VersaMax, and M3000 did not design them to be used in the "combat" or "3Gun Competition" role either. However, the design is not hampered by the load and capacity variations, so they work well.

What is extremely interesting, and should be noted is that the VersaMax and M4 share the same basic design in the operating system. The M2 and M3000 also share the same basic design. Having worked for and with several of the manufacturer's on design, enhancements and modifications to the various platforms, it is abundantly clear why these two basic operating systems are dominant among the top level 3Gunners, and trust me, it is not just free guns. :D Also, realize that the VAST majority of gun designers/engineers are not hard core shooters, maybe casual shooters at best. That is one reason folks like myself keep getting asked for input on the designs and models. Then it is up to the manufacturer to properly implement that feedback...not always done with the best quality.
 
I've been shooting a CZ 712 utility in our monthly matches for about 2 years now. I paid about $500 for it. After a couple of boxes to break it in it has been flawless. I don't do as well as the guys with the high dollar Benelli' s but it is my fault, not the gun' s.
 
How about an H&R Pardner Protector?

Built to higher standards than current 870's---sub $200 at Walmart. Can get at least $100 out of it if you don't like it and decide to sell it--so wouldn't be out much.

Takes 870 accessories except for barrels and there is even a home made mod you can do for that.
 
It does come down to how serious the person is, and to what extremes their equipment is going to be put.
For the majority of us, we'll be lucky to be able to attend a couple of local, much abbreviated, club matches each month, if that.
It's worth considering that our needs are not going to be the same as the folks who live and breath these activities.
 
Sure, that is a consideration. Under the rigors of 3Gun competition, JMPros are likely 5-6K shotguns, CZ712s and 1100s about 7-8K, SLPs about 10-11K. M2s and VersaMaxs...30K+.

So, a JMPro, about 11 cents for each trigger pull. CZ712s about 7 cents, 1100s about 8 cents, SLPs about 10 cents, M2s about 4 cents and the VersaMax about 3 cents.
 
Mark, thanks for you knowledgeable insight. As of now it is just a start up gig, but I know I will like it and it may spawn a bad habit. I have always wanted a Benelli M2 or M4, I might just have to start saving my pennies. The stoeger sounds very interesting as well, I will have to look into it.
 
I looked this morning on the 1201FP that's for sale on my earlier post. 7 hours left, no bids, starting bid is $575 with no reserve and it is a new gun even though it was probably made 20 years ago. I think they were made until the early to mid 90's

And it's just on the other side of the lake from you. I still think it would be something to consider.
 
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