Lethality of Birdshot

thanks, LL!

Excellent reply, LL. Couldn't have said it better myself


You want your first shot to be the last and only shot. The "escalating scenario" is hollywood rubbish
 
That makes sense. I will never consider myself to old or experienced to rethink a position and learn something new. Now I am wandering why he thought the way he did. This was well over 20 years ago, he was an under sheriff and more of a shoot first and ask question later kind of guy. Not sure if he is still alive but if I get a chance I will ask him about it again.

I have never been in a shotgun class. Might look into it.

Thanks
 
a most excellent attribute of pump and semi-auto shotguns is the abilty to top-off the magazine tube with whatever shotshell that's better suited to the specific scenario you're engaged in.

If the BG ducks behind a sofa or wall, pull a slug from the side saddle and stoke the magazine tube with that for maximum barrier/cover penetration. Having a side saddle loaded with different types of shotshells is 1000x more useful and effective than staggering different types of shells in the mag tube. You simply cannot know what's next in the chamber with adenaline pumping and a BG potentially shooting back at you.

Not to mention that if the BG is wearing heavy winter clothing, birdshot will not have the ability to effectively penetrate deep enough for immediate incapacitation. I even have a photo in my files of some gool ol' boy with a load of #4 duck/goose fired directly into his face from 25'-30'. It staggered him, but didn't kill him or preventing him from shooting back, killing his assailant



Please view this excellent defensive shotgun video clip by Thunder Ranch instructor, Clint Smith:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FhgwHQCJwWw
 
The way I figure it, is that there is no such thing as 1 "right" answer. In a perfect world (tacticaly speaking) I would always use 00B in my shotgun. But since coming out of my bedroom is essentially a funnel (small end = my room) with my kids rooms directly behind almost anything I could be shooting at, there has to be an evaluated trade off. If Johnny Snotgobbler moves while I'm shooting him with 00B, and a few pellets hit my sleeping kids, then what was the point of "protecting" them in the first place? On the flip side though, dove and quail shot is definitly on the "not effective enough" side of the scale. Therefore, in MY specific situation, I have decided to use heavy BB loads in the tube, with slugs and buck standing by if required. No, that's not "optimum", but the risk of overpenitration casualties is a real factor in my home. Again, not the answer for everyone, but there is no answer for everyone.
 
ET1ss Phil McCrackin
ETC(SS) Phil McCrackin
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Not sure how old the promotion is but congratulations on joining the greatest group of people you will ever know. Once Chief always a Chief.
 
Thanks, I'm actually hoping for good news from the 8 board this cycle, so it's been a while. I have a request in to the mods to change my username to reflect correctly.
 
Rem defense use # 2 hevi-shot

I just saw some Rem, #2hevi-shot boxed and marketed for the self-defense role. Would have bought some, but the price was $12 for five!!!!!!!!!!!

I think they would be grim death in across the bedroom distances.

I could use'em to back up my #5 turkey loads this spring too.
 
bamaranger said:
I just saw some Rem, #2hevi-shot boxed and marketed for the self-defense role. Would have bought some, but the price was $12 for five!!!!!!!!!!!

I think they would be grim death in across the bedroom distances.

I could use'em to back up my #5 turkey loads this spring too.
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Grim death? Not if the bad guy is wearing heavy winter clothing...
Why not just use buckshot?? It's cheaper and proven effective.

If overpenetration is of concern, then use #4 buckshot
 
with my kids rooms directly behind almost anything I could be shooting at

Then please permit me to say that your biggest problem is with your home defense plan, and NOT with your choice of loads. You and your gun need to be between any likely threat and your kids- the kids should not be downrange.

fwiw,

lpl
 
Grim death? Not if the bad guy is wearing heavy winter clothing...
Why not just use buckshot?? It's cheaper and proven effective.

If overpenetration is of concern, then use #4 buckshot
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Box of Truth (not exactly perfect scientific data, I know) has #4Buck penetrating almost as much as 00B. 6 sheets of drywall (at least 2 rooms over) can still be too much for some situations.

Then please permit me to say that your biggest problem is with your home defense plan, and NOT with your choice of loads. You and your gun need to be between any likely threat and your kids- the kids should not be downrange.
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While I concur, #1- I can’t exactly move the master bedroom to the other side of the house. And, #2- I can’t exactly afford to move to/build a home PERFECT for defense. Ergo, sometimes you gotta make do with what you got.
 
Grim death? Not if the bad guy is wearing heavy winter clothing...
Why not just use buckshot?? It's cheaper and proven effective.

If overpenetration is of concern, then use #4 buckshot
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Heavy winter coats are not some kind of magical super kevlar that stops bullets. Take a mannequin out in a field, put a nice coat on it, then blast it from ten feet away with your shotgun. I think you'll be surprised the number of chunks of mannequin you're picking up out of the field.
 
birdshot is for birdies - buckshot for bad guys - repeat

Ya never know what type of heavy winter clothing the intruder/assailant is wearing.

The winters around here are brutally cold, and it's not uncommon to see thugs and gangstas wearing the stereotypical "puffy coat" [LoL] layered underneath with a thick denim or leather jacket, flannel shirt and thermal underwear shirt. That's a lot of stuff to shoot through before passing through skin, muscle and possibly bone before engaging a vital organ.

Birdshot simply doesn't possess the sectional density to penetrate deep enough after engaging obstacles or heavy winter clothing.

Overpenetration issues a concern? Drop to one knee and shoot at an upwards angle.

Using birdshot for self-defense is pure folly - just don't keep insisting others make the same mistake as you
 
I'm not advocating that anyone do anything, I'm emphasizing that we (armed individuals) accept compromises every day based on analysis of actual/perceived threats, available weapons, laws, physical limitations, and surroundings. For instance, I don't think anyone here, if knowingly and unavoidably going in harms way, would elect to take a pistol vice a long gun, yet very few of us carry a long gun to go to the store. Even leaving out the legality question, few would do it. Likewise, of course I would respond to a threat in my home with body armor donned, 00B blazing, and x ring hits if life was perfect, but since it's not, I have analyzed my particular situation and decided on appropriate actions to suit my needs. In my estimation, responding to an unknown possible deadly force situation, after being awakened at 0300, with the lights off and sleep in my eyes is risky enough without having to try and remember to "drop to a knee" for an angle shot or that my daughter's bed is approx 2 ft high and 6 ft long in the corner of the opposite room. In a high confusion dynamic situation I feel that I may only reliably concentrate on target identification and shot placement, therefore I feel that certain compromises to best accomplish the task are acceptable risk.
 
If Plan A involves sending rounds downrange in the direction of your kids, I'd suggest going to Plan B. Since we're playing the "what if" game... what if the shot hits the flimsy interior door and still penetrates, what if the door is open entirely, what if the kid wanders into the hall... I'd rather plan to defend my family with a hand weapon or non-lethal alternative than shoot with my kids downrange. Or just invest enough in hardening your home you'll have time to get in front of the kid's doors before the bad guy gets back there.


ADB said:
Ballistic gel is designed to mimic the penetration of a bullet through human tissue. That means that average penetration depth through gel is specifically calibrated to the average penetration depth through a person, bones or not.
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This statement is factually incorrect. Gelatin is equivalent to muscle tissue. Bones affect penetration, especially when the projectile is too light, soft, and slow to break bone. Additionally, heavy clothing will, in fact, significantly affect the penetration of small shot. You are spreading a great deal of misinformation in your posts. I suggest you do some more research before displaying your lack of knowledge any more.
 
Using birdshot for self-defense is pure folly - just don't keep insisting others make the same mistake as you
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No one here is "insisting" that anyone use birdshot. Some of us are simply pointing out that some people here are engaging in what boils down to really bad science with a strong overtone of scaremongering. The bogeyman scenarios spun out here of PCP-laden psychotics wrapped in bullet-repelling clothing bear little to no resemblance to anything that you're ever likely to encounter in a real-world home defense situation.

This statement is factually incorrect. Gelatin is equivalent to muscle tissue. Bones affect penetration, especially when the projectile is too light, soft, and slow to break bone. Additionally, heavy clothing will, in fact, significantly affect the penetration of small shot. You are spreading a great deal of misinformation in your posts. I suggest you do some more research before displaying your lack of knowledge any more.
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As I said: Ballistic gel is designed to mimic the penetration of a bullet through human tissue. In scientific testing, measures are taken to simulate reduced penetration for clothing and/or bones. This can be done by increasing the mixture thickness of the gel, lowering it's temperature, or more elaborately by placing actual physical obstructions over or inside it. By calculating relative densities, the testers can determine the actual performance of a round.

I'll say again what I've said before. At home defense ranges, anything coming out of a 12 gauge barrel will be fatal. If some people choose to use different rounds for controlled penetration, that's their business, and they don't need people on here yelling that they're endangering their families, or perpetuating dubious conventional wisdom.
 
So your contention is that small shot will reliably penetrate through bone and heavy clothing to a sufficient depth to reach vital organs? Again, factually incorrect.

Of course one could depend on the psychological effect of being shot to stop the aggressor, and admittedly it would most often work. Heck, the vast majority of defensive gun uses are resolved without firing a shot, so you'd most often be ok with a totally unloaded gun. But neither of those facts is germaine to a discussion of the effectiveness of small shot.
 
"Cheap buck shot is +/- $10 bucks for 15 rounds and suits me fine, goes BANG when I need it to.
Brent "


Wal Mart has 15 round boxes of Remington 2 3/4 00 Buckshot for $7.50!!!!!
 
A guy can "what if" himself from now till Ragnarok if he's not careful. What if the intruder is your son, sent from the future to warn you of a Terminator, and you don't recognize him and drill him with round of whatever?

My overarching point is that no situation or setup is the same, and therefore there is no "one round fits all" answer. That's the beauty of a shotgun, you can carry multiple rounds for different threats. In addition, you have to analyze what the "most likely" scenario might be and plan accordingly, playing the odds, so to speak. For instance, in my case, I: #1- Am most concerned, coming out of my room with my shotgun in a sudden situation, with a lightly dressed (SE Georgia) home invader between my room and my kids. #2- I will probably be at the worst possible moment of consciousness/awareness, and therefore cannot count on x-ring hits. #3- Based on the layout of my home, the use of BB shot provides the ability to balance effectiveness with most limited penetration. However, if the situation allows greater situational awareness, time to assess, or there are tactical challenges, I can adapt as the problem develops.

Everyone should make an informed analysis of their specific situation and plan accordingly and to say that "00B is all you should use" is just as reckless as saying that all you should use is slugs or birdshot.
 
So looking at a home defense scenario, using Birdshot anywhere from 10-17ft, where penetrating a wall is not an issue, what Birdshot is lethal (if any)? Or what is a cheaper alternative I may not of thought of?
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This subject has been discussed on many threads on many sites. Including this one.

If you want to rely on ammo from a SHOTGUN that becomes ineffective as it BEGINS to spread out, then that's contrary to the principle behind the shotgun with multiple projectiles. When bird shot spreads and still has a dense enough pattern, it still penetrates birds.

For hostile individuals bent on your murder, use ammo that's still effective when it spreads enough to develop a pattern, or use a single projectile.
 
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