Let them run, or hold them.

Since this was another "what if" scenario thread I opted to play along... In all actuality I will not have the chance to hold 'em or let them go... Intruder in my home is going to be a lead receptacle in too short of order.
A home invader has me in fear for my life by gaining entry... No warnings from me at all. Simply defend my loved ones from danger results in 2 COM... I don't multi task well enuff to play games with the intruder.
Brent
 
Why is everyone so sure that the shots they fire will be necessarily lethal? That's not really the case - no offense to your marksmanship or stopping power of your gun.

When you say, he will be dead - isn't that posturing? Not all COM shots are lethal or head shots. So if you do hit the BG and they fall down - maybe they aren't dead. So you can call the cops.

So I find the statement that they will be dead or whatever, not really realistic.
 
Mr.Meyer, If the BG is not dead how can one be positive it is safe turn your back on them to call the LE agency? I am guessing 2 COM followed by a head shot if BG is still standing will likely allow me to call 911... At which point I can likely let them crawl out if I did my job. Blood trails find plenty of BG's. As I understood the hold 'em question, it was without shots fired...
Brent
 
No one suggested turning your back on a person. My point is that two in the chest and in the head (unless you have X ray vision) don't guarantee death as some posters usually suggest. Folks say in many threads that if the BG is in their house, they will be dead.

However, I've heard enough lectures to know that there is no gurantee that your shots will be lethal. If they are not immediately lethal - modern medicine saves most gun shot victims.

As for the tactical issue - one would continue to be oriented towards the downed person. If you live with someone - tell them to call for help. If you live alone, you might have a problem but what are your options:

1. Try to get to a phone with the BG in sight
2. Since the BG is incapacitated for the moment - remove yourself at speed to a safe distance or room to get help.
3. Finish him off and face murder charges as I don't think any castle or self-defense doctrine will support a finishing shot - yeah, you can lie and hope you don't get CSI'ed.

So, I was just objecting to the throw away - they will be dead in my house as I am the dead eyed lethal shot meister.

As far as holding them - if they want to leave - fine with me. Call the law and up the firepower and hunker down waiting for help.

While you might defend yourself on shooting a fleeing felon, you might not. And it will cost you a fortune. The idea that a fleeing felon will come back for revenge needs to be proven empirically. It might happen with stalkers or if you are in some gang mess. I don't see reports that pure B&E guys do that.
 
Gotcha... Well rather an a coup de gras shot... one could just take a few minutes trying to remember the phone number to "911"...:D
Brent:eek:
 
Back to the OP...

In order to draw my weapon the BG has to clearly pose a threat of great bodily harm or death. Fair enough.

Let's suppose Mr. BG accosts me in the parking lot of a 7-11 or similar stop & rob, displays a large fixed blade knife or bayonet and demands my money. The lethal threat is implicit in his brandishing the knife. I tell him "Fine! Okay fine! No sweat man!" As I sweep my jacket aside and begin to draw, he gets a clue and realizes what's coming, so he drops the knife and shows his palms, apologizing profusely. Now what?

Well, he's attempted a felony for which I may legally arrest him under the citizen's arrest doctrine. If I quickly follow up with commands to put him on the ground until help arrives AND he obeys, all is well and good.

I can tell him it's his lucky day and he has 10 seconds to get out of visual range. Let him run somewhere else and count his blessings.

But...
  • What if you order him down on the ground and he just turns and starts walking away?
  • If you tell him to get lost or start running, what do you do if he decides to simply walk away 50 feet? Or only 30 feet?
  • Do you do anything different if he walks off across the parking lot some 50 feet away, then starts angrily cussing you and telling you how he's "gonna whip yo' a**"?

In (1) above, I'm going to keep him covered until he is either out of sight or too far away to be a viable threat, while maintaining a "watch-six" attitude. I may even retreat out of his sight. It's certain that I will modify my location while his back is turned.

For (2), the obvious answer is to use a cell phone or a nearby phone (if available) to call the PD and have them deal with the guy. Heck, he just may want his knife back.

For (3), the response is about the same as for (2) except that a careful eye is kept on him at all times and for any buddies lurking about.

Home Intruders:
Someone in my home who fails to follow instructions to leave or surrender will leave slightly heavier than he arrived. He may or may not survive his injuries.

In the event that one faces an intruder conveniently in the livingroom and at your first shot they double over, drop to the floor screaming and curl into a fetal position, you are now stuck with it.

Obviously the BG can be faking or not hurt as bad as you think. At this stage, obtaining help is your next step and dialing 911 is second to keeping him covered. SOP says you do what you can to keep out of his line of vision.

If you shoot someone who is down on the ground, I guarantee it will come up in the forensic examination. You'll need a solid explanation for those shots.
 
Glenn you are right I wasn't meaning that I am the greatest shot in the world. I should have stated that in my home I use a 12ga with 00 buck for HD, and most likely the BG would be dead. Or in your reality maybe he will live and I will die, but rest assured at 10 feet away the BG and I fire, someone is going to die. I do take exception with you knowing what kind of shot I am, or anyone for that matter. I shot a running 6pt buck at 35 yards away straight thru the heart. I have a witness and I also posted on this forum with a picture and story. (I'm sorry I don't know how to link to it but it is out there) So yes some people may not be able to shoot, may need more than one shot, or may not know how to handle a gun, as for me in particular I don't believe your statement holds water.
As far as letting the BG run it still remains ok by me.
 
Many a buck has hit my dinner table and most of them seemed like pretty amazing shots at the time. The difference is they weren't attacking me in my sleep, scaring my family and myself then threatening our lives as I tried to grapple with my bedside blaster. They were just trotting through the forest on cold, quiet mornings...much different situation. Not doubting anyone's skills, just seems like apples and oranges.

I'd ask them to sit on the ground, facing away from me, keep my distance and have wifey call for LE>>>if they ran, I'd let them go.
 
I don't like to repeat myself - but it is a mistake to think that shots will be necessarily fatal or you won't miss.

Experts miss under stress and folks survive massage damage. That was my point.

The initial statement was that if someone was in the house, they would be dead - if you deconstruct - that was an overstatement.

I just like to be realistic so that one is aware of the contingencies.
 
that was an overstatement.
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I think many of us (myself included) tend to think in terms of the ultimate outcome. I know very well that many gunshot victims survive their injuries and recover, with and without permanent disabilities.

The OP's question isn't really about shooting someone. It is actually an excellent question in that he is asking what to do if it turns out shooting is not necessary.

An example given in a training class was where you hear someone inside your home at night and when you peek into the living room, he's sitting on your sofa, with one of your beers, watching the TV. Worse, he is unresponsive to your commands at all.

In such a case, shooting him is not a legitimate action because he poses no immediate threat. Those who would suggest that his mere presence poses a threat have not had to deal with prosecutorial investigations or questioning.

Likewise, a street encounter at 10 feet where your attacker suddenly drops his knife/gun/club but does not flee when given the chance nor obey commands is not an immediate threat. [Though in such a case I'd be tempted to increase the distance between us.]
 
The OP's question isn't really about shooting someone. It is actually an excellent question in that he is asking what to do if it turns out shooting is not necessary.
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Exactly.

An example given in a training class was where you hear someone inside your home at night and when you peek into the living room, he's sitting on your sofa, with one of your beers, watching the TV. Worse, he is unresponsive to your commands at all.

In such a case, shooting him is not a legitimate action because he poses no immediate threat. Those who would suggest that his mere presence poses a threat have not had to deal with prosecutorial investigations or questioning.
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Right again.

We are given the natural right of self preservation. The law entitles to do what is necessary to preserve ourselves.

Our duty is not to use force to enforce the law and apprehend those who break it. We select, train, empower, and pay others to do so.

Nor is it to decide what constitutes due process. The second to last thing I ever want to do is shoot someone.
 
Quote:
Note the influence of Garner v. Tennessee
...
Many people simply don't understand just how limited you are in using deadly force as a result of Tennessee v. Garner.
...
I *think* that will pass muster under Garner
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Sorry guys, but Garner is a Fourth Amendment case which simply has no application to a private citizen. If it did, then it would preclude castle doctrines.

As for current Florida law you'll have to get an opinion from someone licensed there, but the rule used to be the common law rule, that a private citizen can make a citizen's arrest for a felony or breach of the peace. Even things like DUI and public intox have been found to be breaches of the peace. Again, do your own research or consult a FL lawyer.

As for whether a citizen should attempt an arrest, transitioning from gunpoint to going hands on is the most dangerous part of the job of a LE agent or officer. We spend a great amount of time practicing these, then learning what new countermeasures the human excrement have learned in jail or from their fellow gangstas, then learning new ways to defeat their countermeasures, over and over again. An untrained person is just asking for trouble attempting to "try to detain" a bad guy.

As for the other variations of the hypothetical, the answer is always the same, did the bad guy have the means, opportunity, and intent to do serious bodily harm to you or someone else. You can make a million hypos and you'll never get a definitive answer. There simply is no bright line test on which you can rely.
 
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Sorry guys, but Garner is a Fourth Amendment case which simply has no application to a private citizen.
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Correct. I was merely pointing out some nuances in the law as it relates to the use of deadly force in making an arrest.

If it did, then it would preclude castle doctrines.
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Nope. Castle doctrine has to do with use of deadly force in instances of unlawful entry of a residence. Nothing to do with siezure of an escaping suspect.

As for current Florida law you'll have to get an opinion from someone licensed there, but the rule used to be the common law rule, that a private citizen can make a citizen's arrest for a felony or breach of the peace. Even things like DUI and public intox have been found to be breaches of the peace. Again, do your own research or consult a FL lawyer.
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Good advice indeed.

As for whether a citizen should attempt an arrest, transitioning from gunpoint to going hands on is the most dangerous part of the job of a LE agent or officer. We spend a great amount of time practicing these, then learning what new countermeasures the human excrement have learned in jail or from their fellow gangstas, then learning new ways to defeat their countermeasures, over and over again. An untrained person is just asking for trouble attempting to "try to detain" a bad guy.
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Also a very good input, and much appreciated.
 
the law in florida and texas changed by the demand of the people. you can shoot them in your yard running away even.. no kidding. there was some looting we have the most relaxed law now. but now they know dont step on properties with ill intent if you wanna live.
 
In some places you'd be charged with kidnapping, regardless of whether or not the use or presentation of your weapon was initially justified.
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What place are you referring to where drawing a gun on a person would be justified, but holding them for the law wouldn't be?

I've heard of neither criminal nor civil action against such an action. It may have happened, but where?
 
This is not something that has a "one size fits all" answer.

Random mugger sees you are armed and flees as fast as he can is one thing, however a home invasion robber who turns away from you might still present a threat to others in the house.

Things get complicated fast.
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+1 to what this guy said
 
the law in florida and texas changed by the demand of the people.
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Yep. Citizens can carry concealed, and both states have castle laws. In Texas, there's a provision that relates to property.

you can shoot them in your yard running away even.. no kidding.
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In Texas, yes, if they're taking property and you cannot stop them in any other way, but only after thirty minutes after sundown and before thrity minutes before sunrise. That law is controversial, and "demand of the people" may result in amendments. Don't try it in Florida.
 
What place are you referring to where drawing a gun on a person would be justified, but holding them for the law wouldn't be?
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Many places. Consult a criminal trial attorney in your state.

My CCW instructor says that Missouri is one of them. When the immediate threat of death or serious bodily harm dissipates, the justification for using deadly force goes away.

Now, if there has been a serious felony, one may be justified in making a citizen's arrest, assuming high physical, criminal, and civil risk. One of the perps gets hurt or suffers from a medical emergency and there may be hell to pay. Again, talk to a knowledgeable trial lawyer in your state. Not the guy who does your will.

I've heard of neither criminal nor civil action against such an action. It may have happened, but where?
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There's no central data base for either civil or criminal trial court actions. I have read accounts on this and other fora.

I have no idea why anyone would want to expose himself to serious physical risks or assume the significant risks of criminal prosecution or civil liability to "hold them for the law"--particularly when there's a high likelihood that the assailants will be on the streets again in short order.

And that brings to mind the thought, and that's all it is, that somehow the citizen's actions might themselves provide the ammunition the perp's lawyer's need to get him off. Unlikely, maybe, and perhaps very unlikely, but why risk it?

In my case, as soon as the danger has passed I become a witness.
 
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