Lessons from the Pittsburgh Gym Shooting

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We all realize that action is faster than reaction. That is the reason that we wear a seatbelt while driving instead on trying to buckle up only when we see a accident comming. I try to live and enjoy life as normally and responsibly as possible. All I can do is to try and be reasonably prepared to midigate the likely dangers that are associated with life. There is no way that I can protect against everything and I dont try to.
 
Safe, safer, safest...

thawntex said:
For me, the lessons of defensive driving apply to everyday life:
Always have an escape route
Pay constant attention to those around you
Try to predict the actions of others
Control yourself when confronted with aggression
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Farmland said:
I know I often find my self looking for exits and places that provide protection if only for a second when I'm out with the family. I often give a person with a large bag a little more attention, such as a duffel bag. I know I watch someone new that walks into a place that I have never seen or just doesn't fit.
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Both of these comments make the real point here, I think. Whether you're armed or not in a given situation, you're much safer if you routinely pay attention to your surroundings... You can buy a gun, spend money on training and ammunition, etc., but none of that will make you safe if you're not thinking defensively as a routine part of how you meet the world. Knowing where the exits are, knowing where there's cover and/or concealment, noticing that the guy in the black workout suit who just walked in is listing to one side from the weight of his gym bag... priceless.

I like the defensive driving analogy a lot better than notions about "warrior mindsets" and the like. It's just an everyday habit of awareness, of not letting someone sit in your blind spot, of scanning down the road for potential trouble... Is it a guarantee that you won't be the one who's blindsided? No, but it sure reduces the odds.

Another analogy: When my dog and I were taking obedience classes, one of the other students had a question: "My dog always comes when called when I'm training him, but he won't do it when I'm not -- what should I do?" Umm -- and the reason you're ever not training him is....?
 
WA

WildoneandtowandstepandheywaitihavetoadjustmythongholsterAlaska TM
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The Hello Kitty shower cap image, in posts from the past, was a bit unnerving; however, this image of you is downright scary!

outside of a REAL military Operator, can react.....
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I am in agreement with pax on this one. Just a bit of baiting going on here.
 
Perhaps if you have a free fire zone area like that, you need to be sued for such an act.

In the past, the action of a third party, violating the law, has been a barrier against the recovery for deaths they cause. Perhaps the case has to be made that if you have a Free Fire zone, like a court room, school, gym due to policy, that you have a duty to keep those people safe. This should mean as the courts do, metal detectors, police on hand, and taking any item that you are not supposed to have in the area.

If you fail to provide such services, the families of the dead should be allowed recovery, since your actions created a situation where they were helpless, unable to protect themselves from someone with a firearm.
 
Well... considereing someone saw the guy on a bus before hand holding a "grenade" and after the police had him the guy who saw him earlier couldnt identify him... so after the cops let him go apparently without searching him he went on to kill people... at least thats what im hearing on the news this morning...
 
The real less on

Crazy people will somehow always find a way to get armed, it does not matter how many laws/barriers you put in front of them. It is the job of sane people to defend themselves when crazy people show themselves to be a threat and WE CANNOT DO IT IF THE GOVERNMENT TOUCHES OUR GUNS!!! I tell the government the same thing about my guns that I would tell Michael Jackson about a little boy... "NO TOUCHY!!!"
 
I am in agreement with pax on this one. Just a bit of baiting going on here.
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really AZAK? Ok, I for one have the honesty to admit in in the Gym Scenario, I for one would be doing more harm than good in attempting to take down an attacker....

Most of us are not trained to react in a dark environment with screaming, bullets flying, bodies running about everywhere against a shooter who has the advantage of surprise and position....

So how is that baiting...because some folks THINK they could do some good in that scenario and it hurts their feelings because they cant?

isnt it part of Tactics and training to know your limitations?

WildsoundslikeasubjectfordiscussiontomeAlaska ™
 
good post....good question. kinda makes all those what holster should i use when taking a shower, or what gun should i choose when i'm at the beach wearing nothing but speedos questions look as stupid as they really are.

i knew a pres. of a national m/c club. he walked out of a bar filled with his friends one nite. he had a friend on either side, all were armed. one shot rang out and he was dead. the sniper disappeard without any return fire. if kings and presidents can be shot it is nothing but arrogance to think a concealed handgun and a few trips to the range will somehow make you invincible. i'm not saying to leave your guns at home, i'm just saying if you let fear dictate your life or you will never be more than arms length from your gun vault and there is alot of life that you will be missing out on. i say be careful, take precautions, don't act foolish or stupid but there is alot of good stuff out there. don't live as a prisoner of your own mind.
 
WA

I for one have the honesty to admit in in the Gym Scenario, I for one would be doing more harm than good in attempting to take down an attacker....
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I would call it belief rather than honesty. "The ideas in your head rule your world." To paraphrase a source or two.

Most of us are not trained to react in a dark environment with screaming, bullets flying, bodies running about everywhere against a shooter who has the advantage of surprise and position....
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Most of us are not trained for much of what happens in life period. Does this constitute just sitting on our Hello Kitty thongs, and bemoaning the fates? Godot, Godot, where for art thou Godot?.

So how is that baiting...because some folks THINK they could do some good in that scenario and it hurts their feelings because they cant?
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Thinking that you can do something is paramount to doing it. When you think you "cant"... self-fulfilling prophesy.
 
It's simple logic. If I'm a criminal, I go to a place that stops people from defending themselves. Can we say San Francisco and New York?

Why bother trying to rob people in states where I might get shot? Louisiana, Florida, Texas, Alaska??. Heck no. I want a place with the least security, and, the best chance possible of not getting shot. Schools, etc. free fire zones, no resistance, best place to rob...

Then if I do get caught, why not a place they can't keep me in jail? Kali...
 
Safety is a perception anyway

The people in the gym a split second before the freak got there felt safe enough. They were just doing something they do routinely. And not one of them was at fault, nor were they wrong. They just didn't know a monster was coming in the door because he didn't look like a monster until he started shooting.

Take me. i live in a New England state, and everyday i get on two different trains and then a subway, to get to my job at the Federal Building in the big apple. Aside from my wits, two hands and a sharp tongue, i am unarmed (discounting the cheap clip-on knife clinging to the liner of my briefcase). This is not how i like it, it merely is. The perception of relative safety on the trains and in the Federal Building have so far been reliable, except for a couple close encounters with drunken Yankee fans that were defused by others.

I am also a 9/11 survivor - my former office was at 6 WTC, overlooking the plaza and 40 feet from tower 1. The stuff i saw that morning wasn't on TV - cameras couldn't get close enough fast enough (but i'll bet they tried) to see folks hitting the pavement 20 feet in front of my building. In the months and years afterward, i decided to build up my gun collection and obtain a CCW. I was angry, and wanted to never feel that helpless again, especially when my family was with me.

So i carry when and where i can, including around the house, perhaps 50% of the time. I carry because i want that answer - lethal force - available at a moment's notice if some thug decides it's time to kill me, rape my wife, you get the idea. But i've noticed that when i carry i have a feeling of safety that i know is false. If anything, when you carry you are more vulnerable. Why? Because your instinct to run away from danger may well be overridden by the "power" at your side and your training to assess and respond. Right or wrong, your first response - even at a massacre like the Pittsburgh gym - probably won't be flight.

The lesson? Be unafraid and stand up for yourself as you believe appropriate; stay in code yellow, but live your life. None of us get out of it alive anyway.
 
AZAK said:
Thinking that you can do something is paramount to doing it. When you think you "cant"... self-fulfilling prophesy.
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Have you tried this approach for, oh, flying, for example? :p

It's not a matter of "thinking you can't," but of a realistic assessment both of your limitations and of the situation you're in. I may want to believe I can take on a 6'4" 250# football player in hand-to-hand combat, but I'm going be a lot better off "thinking I can" run away... :rolleyes:

Daugherty16 said:
But i've noticed that when i carry i have a feeling of safety that i know is false. If anything, when you carry you are more vulnerable. Why? Because your instinct to run away from danger may well be overridden by the "power" at your side and your training to assess and respond. Right or wrong, your first response - even at a massacre like the Pittsburgh gym - probably won't be flight.
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If you're aware of this, you're ahead of the game compared to many here. Maybe we ought to be practicing escape and evasion, as well as the other more aggressive stuff. It's a perfectly good tactic.
 
Take the 300,000,000 to 1 chance that today won't be the day or the place.
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Right. Be of the Wildebeast mentality by recognizing that it's a virtual certaintly that the lion will get one of you, but figure the odds are it won't be you on any given day at any particular place.

Of course, as the days and years mount up, the odds aren't as much in the grass muncher's favor that it won't happen.

Lesson: Except for the sick or injured, the grass muchers killed by predators all had those excellent odds working in their favor so they had nothing to worry about.
 
For perspective:
The FBI results for San Francisco are that you have a 1 in 17 chance of being a victim of a violent crime, per year. Most other big cities are in that range, as well.

So, that 3000000000 whatever to one is real bull.
 
Most of us are not trained for much of what happens in life period. Does this constitute just sitting on our Hello Kitty thongs, and bemoaning the fates? Godot, Godot, where for art thou Godot?.
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So you think its advisable, for some 21 year old aerobics instructor who got her permit yesterday, to engage in the gym scenario?

Part of owning a gun is recognizing when its not good to use it. And the entirety of your response in Grandmaison-like in its simplistic danger.

WildloffensiveaoutranceAlaska ™
 
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