Composer_1777
Moderator
His accuracy was bad though right? he killed 3 people using 37 bullets?
Lessons from the Pittsburgh Gym Shooting
- Thread starter Wildalaska
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When you're in the kind of shape I'm in, yoga and death are pretty much synonymous.
At some point individual efforts at self protection will fall short. There is also a point where communal efforts become way too onerous. I'm betting not many people would have joined this club if they had metal detectors and strip searches at the door...well, metal detectors at the door.
At some point individual efforts at self protection will fall short. There is also a point where communal efforts become way too onerous. I'm betting not many people would have joined this club if they had metal detectors and strip searches at the door...well, metal detectors at the door.
JagFarlane
New member
Just a little nudge for this thread because I think the message here is way more valuable than most people are willing to admit.
For one, a response to challenging the having to be trained as military operative to be effective, the answer is no, with a however. The truth is, very few people can respond in the manner that is necessary in that sort of situation, you either don't have the resources or time to put in the level of training necessary. Remember, a military operative lives and breathes that sort of environment. Even still, they'll respond differently, a Ranger will respond differently than a SEAL who will respond differently than Delta, who will respond differently than FBI HRT, who reacts differently than a US Marshal, etc. etc. But in the end, they are highly trained for situations like that. For the average CCW, you're not.
Set the scene: Lights go out, shots are fired, screams, machinery being slammed around, moans of pain, people panicking and running for the nearest exit, people running into you, the location of the BG isn't necessarily known to you, your adrenaline is flowing signaling fight/flight syndrome, and there's a thick haze of gunsmoke in the air that clouds your senses. How many of you actually train for that?
The simple truth is, we don't, for various reasons. Until you've even been in any situation where you feel your life is threatened, you don't know how you'll react. Its not necessarily something that you can train for, outside of military/law enforcement training. This isn't to say don't carry...do carry [responsibly], train till you feel comfortable with your firearm and skills, then train some more.
Want to know the funny, honest answer to the adrenaline thread? The honest answer is, instinct takes over. This is why units train all the time, to get you to instinctively respond. So, if you carry a .454 Casull but still flinch hardcore with it when you shoot at the range, you're going to flinch. If you always take the time to drop your brass in your hand to save it at the range, you'll do it during the fight. So train smartly.
But the point of the thread is simple, you can't prevent everything, and if you spend all of your life in fear of someone doing something, you'll miss out on a lot of life. So be prepared, but at the same time, enjoy life. Enjoy watching the 20-something girl [or guy] in front of you in the tight spandex ride her bike like no tomorrow, just avoid having the view of Ken in his Hello Kitty thong doing jumping jacks.
For one, a response to challenging the having to be trained as military operative to be effective, the answer is no, with a however. The truth is, very few people can respond in the manner that is necessary in that sort of situation, you either don't have the resources or time to put in the level of training necessary. Remember, a military operative lives and breathes that sort of environment. Even still, they'll respond differently, a Ranger will respond differently than a SEAL who will respond differently than Delta, who will respond differently than FBI HRT, who reacts differently than a US Marshal, etc. etc. But in the end, they are highly trained for situations like that. For the average CCW, you're not.
Set the scene: Lights go out, shots are fired, screams, machinery being slammed around, moans of pain, people panicking and running for the nearest exit, people running into you, the location of the BG isn't necessarily known to you, your adrenaline is flowing signaling fight/flight syndrome, and there's a thick haze of gunsmoke in the air that clouds your senses. How many of you actually train for that?
The simple truth is, we don't, for various reasons. Until you've even been in any situation where you feel your life is threatened, you don't know how you'll react. Its not necessarily something that you can train for, outside of military/law enforcement training. This isn't to say don't carry...do carry [responsibly], train till you feel comfortable with your firearm and skills, then train some more.
Want to know the funny, honest answer to the adrenaline thread? The honest answer is, instinct takes over. This is why units train all the time, to get you to instinctively respond. So, if you carry a .454 Casull but still flinch hardcore with it when you shoot at the range, you're going to flinch. If you always take the time to drop your brass in your hand to save it at the range, you'll do it during the fight. So train smartly.
But the point of the thread is simple, you can't prevent everything, and if you spend all of your life in fear of someone doing something, you'll miss out on a lot of life. So be prepared, but at the same time, enjoy life. Enjoy watching the 20-something girl [or guy] in front of you in the tight spandex ride her bike like no tomorrow, just avoid having the view of Ken in his Hello Kitty thong doing jumping jacks.
LightningJoe
New member
The lesson is that guns aren't a perfect solution to anything. Could you have whipped out your NAA mini when the lights went out and fired at his muzzle flashes? I guess. But you'd probably have been run over by an old lady in a leotard driving a Mercury Grand Marquis in the parking lot later. Life is dangerous. Guns occasionally help. Most of the time, they don't.
Tucker 1371
New member
"Never trade luck for skill"
That's what bureaucrats tell us all the time, though, admittedly, it's ususally all scenarios where it's recommended we submit.
In the Pittsburgh gym mass murder, I don't recall anyone dying because they fought back.
I don't know how speedy and surprising he needed to be to gun down defensless women, in a carefully chosen environment, with no risk to himself.
He'd attempted it before, but became indecisive and chickened out on a couple of occasions. Unfortunatly, he was effective enough.
Don't know what all the lesson stuff is about. Who among us figured that we're completely safe because we're armed, or need to be told there no truly safe environments out there after attacks at schools, universities, churches, offices, malls, parking lots, stores, streets, law offices, coffee shops, court houses--- in the stairwell, parking garage, when hiking, going to the laundry room, in our homes, taking out the garbage, getting the mail, etc.
Some good lessons for aerobics class members, perhaps.
m&p45acp10+1
New member
OK here is my take on this.
Situational : Aerobics room of a gym. No cover, it is a large open floor. Lights were turned out. Some ambient light was coming through. He fires shots and it takes a moment for the ladies to figure out that some one is shooting people in the room. (Shock and Awe affect.) They then start to scrable out.
Time frame was less than a minute and a half. What I have gathered is he unloded both handguns as fast as he could pull the trigger. He then took out a revolver and killed hisself.
Subjective profile: (my personal opinion here) He was depressed and had the delusional thought that a girfriend or lover might help him to not be depressed any more. He bought his clothes, groomed himself, bought cologne, furnished his house, and chose his car all with hopes that it would have more appeal with women. He joined that very gym and started lifting weights in hopes of meeting a woman. When none of it seemed to work he decide life was just too miserable to go on. He decided he is gonna end it all and take out a few of his percieved tormentors. He could not go through with it before I feel because when it was lit it made it too personal for him to get past the thought of killing women. He goes home and keeps thinking of how can he cary it out. He stated in his journal "maybe this new idea will work this time" I personaly believe he decided to go back for the night class with the intentoin of turning out the lights and just opening fire. Thus being able to cary out his plan.
Aftermath: 3 dead several wounded, a couple of them criticly. Dead gunman by his own hand.
There are a lot of what ifs here. Honestly If one of those women had somehow say had a fanny pack and a handgun she may still have not been able to do much if anything. We all say get cover. Only way to get cover in that situaton is either behind a dead body, or get out of the room. Hoping you do not get one in the back on the way out. Or try to fire on him with the small amount of ambient light that was in the room.
Unfortuately There is no magic awnser to this.
Situational : Aerobics room of a gym. No cover, it is a large open floor. Lights were turned out. Some ambient light was coming through. He fires shots and it takes a moment for the ladies to figure out that some one is shooting people in the room. (Shock and Awe affect.) They then start to scrable out.
Time frame was less than a minute and a half. What I have gathered is he unloded both handguns as fast as he could pull the trigger. He then took out a revolver and killed hisself.
Subjective profile: (my personal opinion here) He was depressed and had the delusional thought that a girfriend or lover might help him to not be depressed any more. He bought his clothes, groomed himself, bought cologne, furnished his house, and chose his car all with hopes that it would have more appeal with women. He joined that very gym and started lifting weights in hopes of meeting a woman. When none of it seemed to work he decide life was just too miserable to go on. He decided he is gonna end it all and take out a few of his percieved tormentors. He could not go through with it before I feel because when it was lit it made it too personal for him to get past the thought of killing women. He goes home and keeps thinking of how can he cary it out. He stated in his journal "maybe this new idea will work this time" I personaly believe he decided to go back for the night class with the intentoin of turning out the lights and just opening fire. Thus being able to cary out his plan.
Aftermath: 3 dead several wounded, a couple of them criticly. Dead gunman by his own hand.
There are a lot of what ifs here. Honestly If one of those women had somehow say had a fanny pack and a handgun she may still have not been able to do much if anything. We all say get cover. Only way to get cover in that situaton is either behind a dead body, or get out of the room. Hoping you do not get one in the back on the way out. Or try to fire on him with the small amount of ambient light that was in the room.
Unfortuately There is no magic awnser to this.
Some people discuss the issue as though luck were something you have the option to pick.
Luck and skill exist in two different contexts which aren't sympatric (they don't live in the same environment).
Better to stick with reality. Luck chooses you. Not you it. Without skill, you may not last long enough to allow luck to intervene in your behalf in a good way or bad.
Of course, no doubt, some folks would argue that being killed because of lack of skill is bad luck.
scottaschultz
New member
I met my wife through luck. I keep her through skill!
Scott
maestro pistolero
New member
My first lesson: Validation. I am not paranoid after all for having my pistol in a bag that follows me from station to station as I work out at the gym.
I find it hard to believe that a person attempting to intervene could have made this situation any worse. You have a guy intentionally killing people with multiple firearms. The chances of me being his next target are what, 1 in 20, or 1 in 40? (based on however many people were in the room).
I follow the movement of the muzzle flashes while moving low and fast into position. If the alternative is to wait my turn to be executed, or watch innocent people die one after the other, I am by God going on the offense. I think I stand a way better than 50/50 chance of stopping the guy before becoming the next target.
I find it hard to believe that a person attempting to intervene could have made this situation any worse. You have a guy intentionally killing people with multiple firearms. The chances of me being his next target are what, 1 in 20, or 1 in 40? (based on however many people were in the room).
I follow the movement of the muzzle flashes while moving low and fast into position. If the alternative is to wait my turn to be executed, or watch innocent people die one after the other, I am by God going on the offense. I think I stand a way better than 50/50 chance of stopping the guy before becoming the next target.
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Think outside the box WA. You should be endorsing Thunderwear. www.thunderwear.com Just don't fall and accidently blow off your tender vittles by mistake! 
SkanprettysoonWildAlaskaisgoingtosnipeouteveryonethatinfringesonhistrademark21 TM
SkanprettysoonWildAlaskaisgoingtosnipeouteveryonethatinfringesonhistrademark21 TM
a good question
Mmmmh, indeed that is a good question ( in the opening post)
I admit, I do not carry in some situations.
When I go to Gym I mostly swim, but even if I was doing other stuff, I do not think that I would carry.
the same applies when I go horse-riding ( I fear to think of what my mare would do if I let off a shot while being on her back, but I am pretty sure that it would end up with me taking sand out of my ears).
I also have not seen any skydivers carrying guns, we had a safe in the club where we would lock our guns while we were busy with the day's jumping.
At the end life is not B&W but several shades of gray, and I make it a point to asses the risk of everything I do and IMO, the chances of someone opening up while I am at the Gym or horse riding are rather slim and since carrying then is not very practical for me, I don't.
This does not make me feel bad or as if I am inconsistent.
Brgds,
Danny
Mmmmh, indeed that is a good question ( in the opening post)
I admit, I do not carry in some situations.
When I go to Gym I mostly swim, but even if I was doing other stuff, I do not think that I would carry.
the same applies when I go horse-riding ( I fear to think of what my mare would do if I let off a shot while being on her back, but I am pretty sure that it would end up with me taking sand out of my ears).
I also have not seen any skydivers carrying guns, we had a safe in the club where we would lock our guns while we were busy with the day's jumping.
At the end life is not B&W but several shades of gray, and I make it a point to asses the risk of everything I do and IMO, the chances of someone opening up while I am at the Gym or horse riding are rather slim and since carrying then is not very practical for me, I don't.
This does not make me feel bad or as if I am inconsistent.
Brgds,
Danny
Poseidon28
Moderator
Sad Ken comes to that conclusion. If everyone of those women had a 22lr Beretta, or, some sort of deep ccw, in thunderwear, the guy might have been met by a hail of 22 bullets, better then being shot up.
All it shows is when you go into a Free Fire Zone, where all guns are banned, your screwed...
All it shows is when you go into a Free Fire Zone, where all guns are banned, your screwed...
Danny is quite right. I watched my son jump out of perfectly good airplane this past weekend. Everything must come out of the pockets and off the belts... wallets, phones, knives, and most certainly guns.
I take martial arts. Do not ever let one of the instructors, or worse yet, the head man himself, find you packing a gun while you're on the mats working out.
There are situations where you can not carry a gun. You just have to deal with it and have a plan "B". Then have a plan "C".
spacemanspiff
New member
Who said guns were banned from the gym?
Brian Pfleuger
Moderator Emeritus
Indeed.
Plan A) Carry a gun.
Plan B)Take the 300,000,000 to 1 chance that today won't be the day or the place.
Plan C) Be hard to hit.
WildAlaska,
You know better than that, and you're just potstirring for the "fun" of watching online strangers get mad at you. Knock it off.
Just because all scenarios aren't survivable, does not mean that it's stupid or pointless to improve your odds by being prepared to cope with the ones that are survivable.
And as for fighting back somehow causing more harm than simply dying for the guy's sick pleasure, I don't see that in this situation. There are other situations where the best strategy might be to wait and see what happens before choosing to fight back, but I don't see anyone in this situation getting more dead simply because they tried to survive.
pax
You know better than that, and you're just potstirring for the "fun" of watching online strangers get mad at you. Knock it off.
Just because all scenarios aren't survivable, does not mean that it's stupid or pointless to improve your odds by being prepared to cope with the ones that are survivable.
And as for fighting back somehow causing more harm than simply dying for the guy's sick pleasure, I don't see that in this situation. There are other situations where the best strategy might be to wait and see what happens before choosing to fight back, but I don't see anyone in this situation getting more dead simply because they tried to survive.
pax
Wildalaska
Moderator
Havent seen folks getting to worked up here yet (for a change)
At any rate, I think it is a legitimate issue. Sort of like being armed at the beach when wearing, as I do, skimpy attire..or in the swimming pool, or the shower.
I am not arguing for being prepared...I am arguing at the LEVEL of preparedness...something which I see many posters agree with...
My main point here....some situations would MANDATE that even if armed, one not fight back (at least immediately)...
WildtherearemanyothersceanriosAlaska ™
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