Less Molon Labe, More Reaching Out

[DaleA]

The whole thing is an agenda to "prove" some decline in gun ownership. If they do that, they can go to their donors and claim they're having success.

I have no doubt this could be true.

There's so much stuff so much worse as far as misinformation of guns goes that the media is complicit in spreading that I wouldn't doubt for a minute that gun ownership is way higher than this stat.

Since the 2016 election it's kind of easy to throw these kinds of surveys onto the scrap heap.

And on a personal note, when I was a kid and my parents were surveyed, even up until I was middle-aged, IMhO, it was kind of an honor to be surveyed. Then there started to be lots more surveys, some with a really transparent agenda and some not really surveys at all but telemarketers trying to sell stuff that a lot of people, me included, just started hanging up on them, telling them it was none of their business or a few of my friends started lying just for sport.

 

[stephen426]

I totally agree with the original post and have been pushing for more dialogue for a long time. I try to use reason and logic when sharing my views with people who are not into guns. Notice how I did not say "anti-gun" since some people cannot and will not be reasoned with. There are plenty of people who are on the fence. Chest thumping tends to shove them over the fence where the anti-gun crowd is. I just took my friend's daughter shooting for the first time and she loved it. She just turned 16 and I have known her parents since high school. With the recent tragedy at Marjorie Stoneman Douglas, I cautioned them not to post any of the pictures they took since we live in South Florida. It would be a sure way to get lots of hate from those who believe all guns should be banned.

 

[buck460XVR]

I've not seen anything from pro-gunners that matches what the anti's throw out ("assault weapons," "high-capacity magazines," "cop-killer bullets," "armor-piercing bullets," etc...).

Why is "Assault Rifle" any different than calling the same firearm "modern sporting rifle" or a "tactical rifle"? Both are used by different folks in an attempt to epitomize the firearm to what they want it to represent. As for High capacity Mags and armor piecing bullets, I see pro-gunners using those terms all the time. What I see most from pro-gunners is the attempt to make anti's out as stupid and ignorant, when in reality they are doctors, lawyers, successful businessmen/women and others with average and above average intelligence. That's why we need to use intelligent arguments and solutions in attempt to persuade them. Talking down and belittling them ain't doing it. If we don't like it when the antis portray us as Bubbas, with a loaded gun pointed out of our truck window, handing our beer to our buddy, while sayin' "watch this!", why should we expect them to be any different?

You have to focus somewhat on the anti-gun extremists because they are often listened to by the neutrals. As for solutions to gun violence, there aren't a whole lot of them aside from what is already mentioned. One major solution would be a complete 100% ban on all semiautomatic firearms period. But that comes with the caveat of massively infringing on people's rights. Arguing this of course then requires defending why the right to arms is a right and how the proposed gun control of the anti's infringes greatly on said right.

We have to hope those neutrals are also listening to us. Again, why we need realistic and intelligent answers, instead of just cute memes on Facebook. As for solutions, I see very many presented by progunners other than the same ol' "Shall not be infringed", "From my cold, dead hands". Those neutral have heard all of that before. Those that are gonna be swayed by those simplistic statements have already been swayed, and it ain't enough. We want the other side to compromise and give up something while we don't give an inch, or any reasonable alternative. Because of this, I see us getting pushed farther and farther away from the ability to convince.

 

[Glenn E. Meyer]

One only has to look at the latest Ted Nugent uproar or the guy who got canned on Sinclair for suggesting horrific violence against the Parkland kids. If one thinks the progun messaging is working for the most part, that person has little understanding of messaging or just chortles over tribal rabble rousing. Fund raising from the tribe is not a strategic goal to protect the RKBA.

 

[zukiphile]

What I see most from pro-gunners is the attempt to make anti's out as stupid and ignorant, when in reality they are doctors, lawyers, successful businessmen/women and others with average and above average intelligence. That's why we need to use intelligent arguments and solutions in attempt to persuade them. Talking down and belittling them ain't doing it.

Emphasis added. That's fair. An intelligent person can set forth a foolish idea; some ideas are so foolish that one would almost need to spend a lot of time in school to believe them.

Condescension isn't persuasive, but noting the ignorance or poor reasoning in a position can't be off limits just because the writer wears a lab coat. We recently saw the article of a Florida medical doctor calling for a ban on ARs because of the terrible damage its bullets can do, and in the past we've seen docs used as a misapplied authority on gun violence as a public health issue. Recall also that there were quite a few smart attorneys on the other side of Heller.

One should be able to have respect for a person without granting undue deference to academic credentials.

 

[O4L]

Emphasis added. That's fair. An intelligent person can set forth a foolish idea; some ideas are so foolish that one would almost need to spend a lot of time in school to believe them.

Condescension isn't persuasive, but noting the ignorance or poor reasoning in a position can't be off limits just because the writer wears a lab coat. We recently saw the article of a Florida medical doctor calling for a ban on ARs because of the terrible damage its bullets can do, and in the past we've seen docs used as a misapplied authority on gun violence as a public health issue. Recall also that there were quite a few smart attorneys on the other side of Heller.

One should be able to have respect for a person without granting undue deference to academic credentials.

Very well said.

 

[LogicMan]

One only has to look at the latest Ted Nugent uproar or the guy who got canned on Sinclair for suggesting horrific violence against the Parkland kids. If one thinks the progun messaging is working for the most part, that person has little understanding of messaging or just chortles over tribal rabble rousing. Fund raising from the tribe is not a strategic goal to protect the RKBA.

Hopefully, people are smart enough to realize that these people do not represent most gun people.

 

[LogicMan]

Why is "Assault Rifle" any different than calling the same firearm "modern sporting rifle" or a "tactical rifle"? Both are used by different folks in an attempt to epitomize the firearm to what they want it to represent. As for High capacity Mags and armor piecing bullets, I see pro-gunners using those terms all the time. What I see most from pro-gunners is the attempt to make anti's out as stupid and ignorant, when in reality they are doctors, lawyers, successful businessmen/women and others with average and above average intelligence. That's why we need to use intelligent arguments and solutions in attempt to persuade them. Talking down and belittling them ain't doing it. If we don't like it when the antis portray us as Bubbas, with a loaded gun pointed out of our truck window, handing our beer to our buddy, while sayin' "watch this!", why should we expect them to be any different?

IMO, any pro-gunner who uses terms like "assault rifle" or "assault weapon" to refer to weapons like an AR-15, or who uses terms like "high-capacity magazine" when referring to standard capacity magazines and "cop-killer bullets" or "armor-piercing bullets" when referring to normal ammunition, is just being stupid and ignorant. And pointing out the wrongness of such terms need not involve any condescension or talking down to people.

It is important IMO to distinguish between nitpicking and legitimate criticism I think. If someone says "high-capacity clips," I'm not going to jump on them saying that the appropriate term is magazine, because you know what they mean. Or if they say "bullets" when they actually mean "cartridges," again, that is just nitpicking. But if a person uses a term like "assault weapon," that is different, and requires a correction. Again, the correcting need not be condescending at all, but does need to be pointed out.

We have to hope those neutrals are also listening to us. Again, why we need realistic and intelligent answers, instead of just cute memes on Facebook. As for solutions, I see very many presented by progunners other than the same ol' "Shall not be infringed", "From my cold, dead hands". Those neutral have heard all of that before. Those that are gonna be swayed by those simplistic statements have already been swayed, and it ain't enough. We want the other side to compromise and give up something while we don't give an inch, or any reasonable alternative. Because of this, I see us getting pushed farther and farther away from the ability to convince.

Would have to disagree here. We want the other side to compromise while we don't give an inch? Respectfully, but I think you are seeing it backwards. IMO, it is the Gun Control side that wants us to compromise without giving an inch. I also hate that term, "give an inch," because the Gun Controllers do not want us to give an inch, they want us to give a mile, and then another mile, and so forth. Holding the line against so-called "universal background checks," "assault weapons ban," "high-capacity magazine ban," "armor piercing ammunition ban," waiting periods, ban on "terrorists" from getting guns (i.e. people on Terrorist Watch Lists), CDC research for gun violence, and pre-emptive gun confiscations is not "refusing to give an inch," it is refusing to give miles and no different than a free speech or privacy rights proponent refusing to give in to demands for bans on "Hate Speech" or certain privacy protections.

 

[Glenn E. Meyer]

Hopefully, people are smart enough to realize that these people do not represent most gun people.

They don’t. Decision making depends in large part on emotional first impressions. Folks don’t go beyond that .

A PS - if you want a handle on decision making, it's a long read but take a look at:

Thinking, Fast and Slow – 2012
by Daniel Kahneman (Author)

Nobel Prize winner for academic credentials.

His work and that of many others demonstrate how even trained professionals - such as scientists, medical professionals, attorneys and judges do not always make 'rational' decisions even in their assigned professional role.

Such analyses demonstrate why a good number of knowledgeable folks about firearms issues think that messaging from the NRA and other gun rights advocates will be ineffective outside of the already committed (the choir, so to speak).

 

[44 AMP]

"Wearing a lab coat," academic credentials, etc...only means the person is an expert in their particular area of study. They can be of average knowledge and/or intelligence in all other areas, or even a flat-out moron in other areas.

My personal experience over a working man's lifetime of 40+ years, and working with numbers of engineers and some scientists is that a degree or a diploma hanging on the on the wall proves only that the owner didn't flunk out.

period.

They may, or may not know what they are doing. They may be wonderfully skilled and competent, they may be clueless idiots who somehow barely manage to keep from getting fired. The Diploma only proves they graduated. Even if they graduated at the top of their classes, it does NOT automatically guarantee competence in the "real" world.

Much the same can be said for military officer's commissions. Some are very good, some aren't, most are somewhere in between.

The worst part about this is the attitudes, and social groups that are too prevalent with many. The blue collar world has its own version, to be sure, but its mostly a reverse reaction to the snobbery displayed by too many people with degrees, or "ring knockers".

I have met (and worked with all too many) a lot of people who simply will not listen to ANY ideas (about anything) from people they do not consider their social or educational equal. And, along with that is often (but not always) a blind devotion and acceptance of any utterance, no matter how stupid, from those they consider their social/educational superiors.

The attitude that "if they knew what they were doing, they'd have a degree" or its military version "if they knew what they were doing, they'd be officers" is not only snobbish, it is hugely shortsighted and automatically discounts a potentially huge resource.

That guy bending tin down in the shop, or sweeping the floor, or wearing SGT stripes might be an idiot. Or they might be someone with a 160+ IQ who could have a wall full of degrees had they wanted them, but they simply didn't want them.

the doctors professors, engineers, etc with that attitude won't listen to us, because we don't have their degrees, so therefore we don't know anything worth listening to. The other side of the coin is people automatically listening to, and respecting every thing they say, simply because they have degrees.

So, right there, you have a major obstacle against any kind of "reaching out". Another is the bias in the news and entertainment industry (if there is still a difference between the two, something of which, I am no longer sure).

Anti gun messages both direct and indirect (in entertainment show plotlines) are run 24/7 and quite often free of charge. Pro gun messages, even ones paid for, are often refused. The "true believers" running the media simply refuse to take our money, to run our messages.

Tough to reach out when one's message is virtually strangled by their control of the most effective methods.

Another problem is the lack of rational thought of those who's most important priorities is following the latest celebrity trends and their version of group think.

I've spent over 50 years enjoying many sporting aspects of firearms, and a few years experiencing (not always enjoying) the military aspects of firearms. No Doctor's diploma or Professor's degree gives them the lifetime's worth of real experience I have. So, why, in my reverse snobbery, should I listen to them? Especially when they are spouting crap.

Likewise, no 17 year old, no matter how traumatized by a horrible experience has any "qualifications" in my opinion, to tell me how to live my life.

I respect their right to their opinions, and will defend the principle that they have the right to express them, just as I do. Doesn't mean they are right, or that I have to obey their diktats...

Yes, I'm old and I'm tired, and I've been beating my head against that wall so long I'm nearly blind from the brick dust. So, here's my share of the torch, I'm passing it to you, I wish you well. But I have no great hopes for the future.

Reach out all you can, as you can, if you can find someone to reach out to...and if your message is even allowed to be spoken. Good Luck with that.

There is hope, not a lot, but some, and some might be enough, if things go just the right way.

In 2001 a lot of people woke up to the fact that firearms in the hands of ordinary citizens, even the semi-automaticassaultweapons of war were NOT the greatest threat to our lives and safety as a nation. We stayed pretty awake for a decade or so, then went back to sleep, and while we have been sleeping, the rats have returned from their holes and are now about to bite us, directly. if they just ate my food (or my money) I wouldn't mind so much, but they just won't stop there.

As a gun owner & user, I've lived through every gun control law since 1968. Despite all the promises, and all the additional laws, the situation the laws were claimed to improve, has not gotten significantly better.

Quite often seems to be just the opposite, to me. But then, what do I know, I don't have a degree....

 

[Wag]

100% agree with the OP. It's like you were reading my mind.

What we need is effective dialogue on a one-to-one basis. I've taken my share of new shooters or even curiosity seekers to the range to teach them about guns. Some are noticeably fearful so they don't eve get to see a real gun in person until we've spent an hour (or as much time as needed) to talk about guns and gun safety in the comfort of my living room. YouTube videos on safety and sight picture/sight alignment are a key part of that discussion. Choose your videos carefully.

Keep up the good conversations. They can happen.

--Wag--

 

[Glenn E. Meyer]

Discussion of the validity of IQ testing and its predictive utility is off topic. The topic is outreach to promote the RKBA. So let's get back on track, please.

 

[Glenn E. Meyer]

I appreciate that if you like a post. 44's was a good one. However, reposting the whole thing to say you like it, just uses up to much space.

If you see some forums, they become endless lists of quotes within quotes.

So I deleted that with no malice or foul. In general, a long quote isn't really needed. If you quote make it short and specific to the item in question.

Thank you.

 

[ATN082268]

I've cringed at Loesch and Nugent more than a few times over the last two months, but I also wonder does it matter?

The lines are pretty clearly drawn, and most peoples' minds are made up on the issue. We're on the wrong side of history and progress. We're backwards luddites from flyover country who can't be trusted to know what's good for us. And when we contest their assertions that punishing the majority for the crimes of a small minority constitutes sane or useful policy, we're domestic terrorists.

Then the people who use this sort of rhetoric hue and cry, "why can't we have a conversation?"

(Of course, "conversation" is codespeak for appeasement.)

It pains me that our political discourse has degenerated to that point, but I fear we have to take the hand we've been given. At this point, we need to dig our heels in, support groups to fight this out in the backrooms of congress, and wait until such a time the RKBA isn't in such danger to soften the message.

All the time I've been in the gun culture, I've never seen a situation in which academia, the media, and politicians (even a former Supreme Court Justice) are all so openly and brazenly against the RKBA. This is far worse than 1994, and for now, it really is an us vs. them situation.

This. I think the 2nd Amendment/ Gun Rights side is kind of in the position now where they can argue along logical/factual lines similar to 2+2=4 and still lose the debate because the government, media, Hollywood and education establishments are generally anti-gun. It is ironic in a way because once the 2nd Amendment goes down the tubes, a lot of other rights will quickly follow with anti-gun zealots running around like chickens with their heads cut off wondering how this could happen.

 

[44 AMP]

I'll try to stay on point, but its not easy, , if I drift, please steer me back...

Less Molon Labe, More Reaching Out...

Agree with more reaching out, though there are a great many blocks in that path. Not so sure I agree with Less Molon Labe, though I think we could be less vocal about it, without hurting our position.

One of the blocks against reaching out, was carefully crafted and as with most, sold to us as something to increase safety, and that is the laws and restrictions that make it difficult, or even an actual crime to teach children about firearms, with real firearms.

It was a gradual thing, but we are now in a place where laws and many people's attitudes seem to want children to know nothing about firearms, other than what they see on a tv or game screen, until they reach that magical age of maturity, (18, now being moved to 21 in many cases) at which point they cannot, by law, stop them from getting a gun, legally.

Combine a virtually enforced ignorance about what real guns do to real things when shot in the real world, and then grant them full legal rights on their 18th (21st?) birthday, and what do you expect?

Of course a percentage will be irresponsible. A tiny fraction of that percent, criminally so. You (and here, "you" means general anti gun attitudes and laws) never allowed them to be taught anything different.

There are still people living who remember that the school they went to had a rifle team. It wasn't an "evil" thing to teach children what guns were, and how to use them properly. In some parts of the country it still isn't thought of as "evil" but in those areas where the most people live the closest together, its a very, very common belief.

its darn near a self fulfilling prophecy, if you can't teach the youth to be responsible, you get irresponsible adults, and so you need more laws to make them responsible. Which seldom actually works, as laws can generally only be applied after the fact.

Progun messages are seldom accepted and run by the mainstream media. "Guns are BAD!" messages are run 24/7. That is the right of the people who own the media. Not fair to us, but it is their right to do as they see fit with their property. All we really ask is the same right with our property, and they won't allow it!

Those of us who have been around a while have watched (and fought) them taking things from us, that we used to be able to have, or do, over, and over, and over. After a while, we tend to get a bit resentful.

So, yeah, we've been pushed, and pushed, and pushed, and I can see how one can get a "come and take them" attitude. How many times does it take for someone to swat you upside the head with a rock and take your stuff before you realize that guy isn't acting in your best interests???

reaching out?? The gun culture is the most open and accepting one I know. As long as you aren't trying to stomp on our rights, you are welcomed, and accepted. This is something unknown to those outside the gun culture. And something the anti gunners devoutly hope never becomes known.

Yes, we have our share of curmudgeons, cranks and out right idiots who do us no favors with their rants and attitudes, but what group doesn't have those?? None I know of.

When you take those beginners to the range, and start teaching them, what is the attitude you normally find in the others there? Is it surly, disrespectful, get away from me...or is it more like. Hey, good to see ya, need any help???"

I've found the former from a few individuals, but it is the latter that generally prevails.

As a group, we're not bad people, though the other side works 24/7 to convince everyone that we are.

So where are we?? "kiss off, its our right!!" doesn't bring newcomers into the fold very often. But if all we do is "dialog" and compromise, there won't be a fold to bring newcomers into.

I am sick of seeing signs that say things like "NRA condones murder" and "2nd Amendment is killing our kids!"

These are lies. Simple, straightforward, lies. What's our response? The only rational one, the truth. But they won't accept the truth, not the zealots, any way, and those zealots spend a lot of effort ensuring the non-zealots and the unconvinced don't even get to hear the truth.

Reality matters less than the distorted image of reality that the anti's have proven to be masters at packaging and selling to the public. They are masters of the "big lie" tactics and use it constantly.

Our moral compass generally prevents us from using that tactic at all. We consider it dishonest. Plus, we suck at it when we do actually try it.

We get attacked, and if we don't defend our position, we lose (something), but if we do defend our position, our attackers scream, "look! they're attacking us! this proves they are the bad people we told you they were!!!"
(another lie)

We're not in an absolutely no win situation, but things aren't good, and we desperately need a Capt Kirk type to "change the conditions of the test". Sadly, the only place I'm seeing that right now, is when I put the right disc in my player...

 

[JERRYS.]

you can extend the olive branch with one hand while still holding a sword in the other.

 

[UncleEd]

Molon Labe translation to
English: When I turn my
back, shoot me and then
take my guns.

That whole gun concept
with the skull-like helmeted
creature was and just plain
silly.

No wonder uncommitted
and non-gun people eventually
end up thinking gun people
are a bunch of kooks.

So, yes, reach out. Be normal.

 

[buck460XVR]

My personal experience over a working man's lifetime of 40+ years, and working with numbers of engineers and some scientists is that a degree or a diploma hanging on the on the wall proves only that the owner didn't flunk out.

period.

They may, or may not know what they are doing. They may be wonderfully skilled and competent, they may be clueless idiots who somehow barely manage to keep from getting fired. The Diploma only proves they graduated. Even if they graduated at the top of their classes, it does NOT automatically guarantee competence in the "real" world.

While one's intelligence does not always parallel their common sense, the universal definition of the word means one's ability to " to learn or understand or to deal with new or trying situations"'. While degrees and diplomas do not create/influence intelligence, they are a sign that those same folks have intelligence.....and the ability to learn and understand. Common sense, or what you refer to as "competence in the "real" world" is more dictated by "lived experiences" than book learning and is also affected by intelligence. IOWs, you can teach or make someone understand, even common sense, if they are intelligent. That is why the use of sound reasoning an intelligent arguments/discussions, IMHO, is better than just posting the same old Facebook Memes and wearing NRA T-Shirts. Kinda all I am trying to say.

The worst part about this is the attitudes, and social groups that are too prevalent with many. The blue collar world has its own version, to be sure, but its mostly a reverse reaction to the snobbery displayed by too many people with degrees, or "ring knockers".

I have met (and worked with all too many) a lot of people who simply will not listen to ANY ideas (about anything) from people they do not consider their social or educational equal. And, along with that is often (but not always) a blind devotion and acceptance of any utterance, no matter how stupid, from those they consider their social/educational superiors.

Of this I agree. My problem is that I see it on both sides, and many times, especially on these types of forums....and again, it's easy to talk down about another religion, when standing in our church. Doesn't change anyone's opinion outside those doors tho.......

You yourself give us a good example of what you are talking about.

the doctors professors, engineers, etc with that attitude won't listen to us, because we don't have their degrees, so therefore we don't know anything worth listening to. The other side of the coin is people automatically listening to, and respecting every thing they say, simply because they have degrees.

No Doctor's diploma or Professor's degree gives them the lifetime's worth of real experience I have. So, why, in my reverse snobbery, should I listen to them? Especially when they are spouting crap.

One man's "crap" is another man's "Gospel". Justifying one's own snobbery because someone else is a snob, is just the kettle calling the pot black. Again, we all are "ignorant" about something. We ain't stupid until we refuse to, or are incapable of learning or understanding the other side. We don't have to agree tho, nor does that makes us an "idiot".

Likewise, no 17 year old, no matter how traumatized by a horrible experience has any "qualifications" in my opinion, to tell me how to live my life.

I respect their right to their opinions, and will defend the principle that they have the right to express them, just as I do. Doesn't mean they are right, or that I have to obey their diktats...

In a year or so that 17 year old may very well, because of his/her right to vote, tell you how to live you life, especially when it comes to legal firearm ownership. In our country, the way our system works, the majority is what tells us what is right. Their diktats may become law of the land unless we use sound and intelligent information to sway them to, or to keep them on our side. They also are what is going to dictate the future of firearm ownership to our kids and grand-kids. We can embrace the future and try and mold it, or we can ignore it, talk down to it and allow it to find it's own way. I know for my kids and grand-kids, what I prefer.

Yes, I'm old and I'm tired, and I've been beating my head against that wall so long I'm nearly blind from the brick dust. So, here's my share of the torch, I'm passing it to you, I wish you well. But I have no great hopes for the future.

Reach out all you can, as you can, if you can find someone to reach out to...and if your message is even allowed to be spoken. Good Luck with that.

There is hope, not a lot, but some, and some might be enough, if things go just the right way.

As a gun owner & user, I've lived through every gun control law since 1968. Despite all the promises, and all the additional laws, the situation the laws were claimed to improve, has not gotten significantly better.

Quite often seems to be just the opposite, to me. But then, what do I know, I don't have a degree....

I am tired too, 44 AMP, but I ain't giving up, and I can see a bright future ahead. I have reached out, found my message allowed to be spoken, and found some folks willing to listen, when approached with an appropriate discussion. I also lived thru the assassination of JFK, Bobby and MLK and the reverse of sentiment towards unrestricted gun ownership. I too have seen the tide rise and fall, depending on how long since the last mass shooting. The American people are not dumb, but like you are tired. Tired of hearing the same ol' cliches and seeing/hearing of horrendous gun crimes.....and some of them are horrendous, regardless of how ardent of a gun owner you are. I doubt if there are any quick and easy fixes, especially ones that both sides will heartily agree upon. I seriously doubt if there will be any new major gun control established at the Federal level, as long as we continue the fight using sound methods. But unless we strive to make our arguments the best we can, we will end up with the losing hand......of that I am sure.

 

[RC20]

'm very skeptical of that statistic. On one hand, the antis claim we have more guns than people in this country. Then they go on to tell us not that many people actually own guns.

The first thing to do when you don't like the data is to consider it fake.

I certainly can't prove its true, but seeing as how the majority of the population lives in a city, gun range time is expensive if they would bother. Where I live its much higher, but we are low population wise.

My best research and due diligence says it is.

As much snobbery goes up as goes down. Just because someone is educated down not mean they are an idiot nor that they look down on you.

I fix stuff for a living, I don't design it. If civilization depended on me to design something we would have gotten about as far as a wooden club.

We all live in different worlds, the best are the ones who contribute to it and the worst ones are the ones who leach. That include white color crime.

What is unrealistic is expecting someone to share your passion for one amendment when that amendment does not touch their lives (the others do)

And I sure did not see the 2nd stop the illegal wire tapping the government engaged in after 9/11. Or the setting up of FISA courts that no one knows who is on or any review of their rulings (well after all they are secret aren't they?)

Ruling that you can take someone home so they can buyild a mall (not a highway, not a school (which I have never seen) or any kind of public work, but a private entity?

Or people that insist that there are millions of pillage voters when in fact (if you believe the election official which inclines a great many republicans) there is virtually none?

I had a guy who argues with me, when I asked for sources they were all like Brightbart, they had an agenda and the truth was more like a bowel of spaghetti. No, the news does not get always it "right" but that is not a given prejudice (it can be) but ignorance. A new caster knows diddly bout engines, I don't expect them to. We do have to be reasonably well read and informed and not stuck in a stove pipe we can't evaluate issues and data.

Corporations are citizens? When in fact your dollars beat my minuscule ones all hollow and I am disenfranchised by that and gerrymandering (no matter who does it)

What that tells me is that the 2nd has failed in its intent and touches too few lives and they see the consequences of it (or don't see it doing anything about those liberties we hold so dear and are going away).

When a credit agency can be hacked (by a known security flaw they did not patch) and the government refuses to set standar5ds let alone prosecute them giving all my personal information to the Chinese and Russians? (to be sold to crooks who then steal my identity which I have to spend endless hours un-stealing)

The very things I need to function are part of binding arbitration agreements that are setup by the very firm that is causing you to need a resolution in the first place?

I see my liberties eroding and I don't see the 2nd doing anything, nor do I think it can frankly.

What I do see is a new generation that is going to upend things for better or worse, but then who let the new generation out of the box without a solid background?

 

[Glenn E. Meyer]

Folks, there have been a few reasonable points on how the RKBA community needs better outreach. There are some folks who still don't get that. We've some recent well thought out philosophical musings on the future of the country.

However, we have wandered far afield from the OP. Thus, I think following our paradigm, when we wander so much (even if interesting), it's time to shut down.

If someone has a interesting take on improving outreach (not denying we need it), we can start a new thread but it has to be new, IMHO.

Take a person to the range. Listen to a neutral and antigunner and try to be polite and convincing. So now a gentle close.