Les Baer - You decide

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To piggyback on what Brian has said, it is not my intention to completely throw Baer under the bus. As I stated in my first post, the gun is way more accurate than I am, the fit (Maybe too tight for some) and the finish really impressed me. It has never failed to feed or jammed. I just have problems with his service and some of his business decisions along those lines. I also agree that having a gun built by a trusted individual is the best way to go if you have the patience for the wait and you can afford it.

Mark

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We are the people our parents warned us about.
 
I've heard one negative report on this board about a phone rep at Wilson's. Let me relate my account about them, and so called "one-man" custom smiths.

I have a LWC for which I had bought a set of Wilson's pyramid sights(their take on Novak's). I had a very knowledgeable co-worker do a "less than staisfactory" installation that I wanted a pro to rectify. I took it to an advertised smith who promotes himself as having over 15 years of experience and reputation.
It seemed like it irritated him to devote a few minutes of his time to me while standing in his shop. Two of his past customers/buddies were waiting for him. He told me that my slide was trashed, and that replacing it was the only "fix" he would consider. It was up to me if I wanted to "face reality" and accept it. (I didn't)
I got on the horn with Wilson's and explained my problem. I was given over to the man who DESIGNED the sights, and he encouraged me to send in my gun. One day after arrival, the shop steward called personally to say they could "save it" w/o anything major. They dialed in their equipment to machine a rear sight SPECIAL for my slide! I had my gun back 5 days later. About $70 total, prior to UPS' usery fees.
SO, if I am ever inclined to spend that kind of dough on a pistol, it WILL be a Wilson's. If they can ever start putting in a series 80 style pin safety, I probably will. Don't be put off by the fact that they sub out their parts. After all, so does Ford, GM, Harley and many others. SO WHAT!

[This message has been edited by VictorLouis (edited February 21, 2000).]

[This message has been edited by VictorLouis (edited February 21, 2000).]
 
Whatever disagreements abotu gunsmithing and such I might have will Bill Wilson, I'll have to give the man credit on a couple points. He's a nice guy and likes to deal with his customers person to person if the chance arises and he has the best service policy of anyone out there. I know of people who have had his mags for over 8 years and worn them out, and he replaced them free and paid the shipping back. He's a good guy and businessman.

Brian
 
The best lesson that can be gleaned from this thread is to let your own experience be your guide. Don't make a decision based soley on what you read in a gun rag, or for that matter on the comments made here on this forum. Remember, anyone can say or write anything they please.

Brian is right when he says that the best way to go is to set down with a smith face to face and discuss what you want. Many of us are not in a position to do this due to finances and location. In this case you need to do some research and hands on evaluating of your own. I know I do before I make a purchase. The only times that I've been stung are when I haven't done this.

I'm a 1911 fan so I've seen quite a few examples by various makers. I've also handled and shot enough examples of other types to know what I'm talking about. If there's one thing that I've learned it's that they *all* make lemons from time to time. Some are much better at it than others but I've seen lemons by just about *every* major manufacturer of firearms. That includes all of the favorites on the TFL. The real difference comes in how they handle that lemon that you've gotten stuck with. My worst experience was with Colt years ago. I was told "it's your gun now so it's not our problem". That definetly helped to make up my mind about Colt.

As I've said before, if your gun hasn't malfunctioned you haven't shot it enough. On the same token anyone who tells you that Brand X makes the absolute best guns on the planet hasn't seen enough guns made by Brand X. Don't let the comments made here be the decided factor in any purchase. Take them for what they're worth but make sure that you do your own research as well.
 
Darn, and I was just about to order a Thunder Ranch special.

I guess I will have to go with another maker.
There are a lot of good 1911 makers out there.
 
Hey guys, don't not buy a Thunder Ranch Special because of anything I said. I'm just saying don't listen to gun magazines. Ask those who own those guns or Baer guns about their experiences or talk to those dealers who sell them and find out how the track record has been. I'm just telling you my beliefs about how a gun should be built and how customer service should be. I'm sure that others, including Les, would disagree with me. You just have to decide who's ideas you arree with more and absorb as much info as you can to make an educated decision and not one based on advertising and marketing.

Brian
 
Well Brian I was another who was thinking of picking up a LB soon...but no more. And I will tell you why. It's one thing to take a chance on a gun if you're spending $6-700...if I get a lemon, it's a bit expensive but not a disaster---I can still afford to have a smith fix it. If I invest over $1400 in a gun, if it doesn't work the company I bought it from had damn well better MAKE it work and do so while basically kissing my butt for it not working in the first place.
A report of a bad LB wouldn't convince me not to buy, but this report of LB not picking up shipping on a gun they were doing warranty work on certainly does make me decide not to buy one.
 
Rik, that is my problem too. I don't want people thinking I'm bashing Les, because I'm not. He had the best AR's at the SHOT Show this year and I think the Monolith is cool, but I just think that when you ship a gun for warranty work, it's common accepted practice to pick up the shipping as a courtesy and the least you can do to keep the customer happy.
We can have different ideas about how a gun should be built and fit. Every gunsmith has a individual style and practice. That's what sets him apart from others, but when it comes to customer service, there's no gray area. Either you stand behind your product and make it right and make the customer happy or you don't. Sometimes the customer is demanding or impossible to satisfy, but in this case I think Mark was more than polite and reasonable. I hope that Les does come to this site and respond on this thread so we have his side of the story and his stand on things.
 
Well, I don't know how terrible or good Les Baer's customer service is but I fired a Concept V today at the range. Regardless of what you people have to say, the Baer I shot today fired VERY nicely. Indeed, it is extremely tight. So what? Therefore, you have to put 500 rounds through it to break it in. A majority of you on this forum fires 500 rounds during one range session.

Don't take me wrong with my above comments. However, I don't think Les Baer's pistols need to be that tight. Yes the Concept V fired very nicely and I was highly impressed with the fit and finish but customer service is EXTREMELY important in a highly competitive market.

I have a Les Baer on order from P&T Partners. I should have the pistol by March 4th. I pray I don't have to use their customer service anytime soon.

Basically, don't judge your opinion about a firearms purchase just from one forum discussion. Go fire a Les Baer for yourself. Then make your judgement.

Once I get my Concept III, I will post on the range results. Best regards.

P.S.
Brian I'm going to get that Kimber package done. First I have to send the Ultra Elite back to Kimber for some re-work because it fires 4" low and 2" to the left. Once I get it back, I'll email you to setup a ship date.

Son
NRA, GOA, RKBA!
"Rangers Lead the Way"
 
I toyed with the idea of buying a Les Baer 1911... But after shooting one, I wasn't impressed with it enough to justify the price.

My take is that once a pistolsmith gets a big head and becomes high in demand, the attention to detail suffers, prices continue to go up and customer relations become iffy.

"We dont care that your thumb safety is tight... we've got other orders to fill and more money to make..."

Go with Wilson, Brian Bilby or Dane Burns.

[This message has been edited by dvc (edited February 21, 2000).]
 
Brian-

I don't think anyone is NOT buying a LB because of you. I decided when I read the first post. Your input has been nice, but I have not perceived you as bashing anyone.
First hand customer experience is what matters, and with the kind of warrenty service I see here, I will NOT be buying LB, ever.
 
Mark,

I think you've been very fair in the way you presented your questions and statements to and about Baer.

Brian Bilby,

I think you and i have participated in variations on this question at Gunspot andf elsewhere. I appreciate your opinion and think you've been clear and fair, and it's good to have the input of a builder. You run the risk of seeming to be envious of Les's success by commenting, but that would be the flawed interpretation, and I don't believe it to be so. (I hope to commission you to build me a gun soon... now that I've procrastinated and your waiting list has grown ;) )

I have a Baer Premier II that I bought used/like new. It was made in '98 i think. It's a fine gun, but in looking at the current production guns, I have to agree with Brian that they are TOO tight. The slides will barely go into battery on some of the ones I've seen.

In looking at my gun vs the newest ones, I can't help but think that Baer's problem is they've grown too much, too fast. Quality control is lacking. Maybe Les's attention has been diverted by the AR ramp-up? I've spoken to him several times, and was impressed. It seems to me--my gut feeling-- is he's a good guy. I hope they get their quality control tightened up before their reputation suffers damage. If I were buying today, it would either be a Rock River, maybe an Ed Brown or Wilson (although I think they're overpriced imo), and most likely a Brian Bilby or the like (from a one-man shop).

[This message has been edited by Covert Mission (edited February 21, 2000).]
 
Brian,

i think youve been amply fair and gentlemanly in this thread. theres nothing to be concerned about.

lets face it, most ppl put their hard-earned cash up expecting BOTH a well-made product AS WELL AS warranty/support etc. the truly successful companies (ones that are both financial performers and generally well respected) offer both (think DELL). companies that cut corners to make their earnings may get away with it for awhile, but eventually lose out to overachieving competitors. in any market worth getting into, there are always overachieving competitors out to eat your lunch. thats the nature of business. however, IMHO les baer's marketing tactics are to be admired. just my $0.02
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Look at the whole FBI HRT thing. Every mag pumps up how he won the HRT contract for the Para guns, and he advertises it in his catalogs and ads but, don't finish the story. Look into that.[/quote]

Yep. Ask Steve Nastoff or Walt Birdsong about those LB Para's. Don't forget to ask Birdsong about Les telling his customers they were getting the Black-T finish on his pistols, hell, just ask the lawyers!

Best thing about Les' products are his frames and slides (don't know who really builds them) as I have had 2 excellent pistols built on them.




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BKs Pistol Pages
 
I'm a little late in posting this reply as I work another job and check The Forum only once every two or three days.

I'm the guy who sold the gun to Mark. (Any replys/complaints go direct).

I firmly believe and usually have on my sign off some form of quote indicating

"You always get what you pay for front end or back end."

In this case. Mark's gun problem is relatively simple and I will deal with that both to repair and his additional expenses but cannot do anything about the lost time.

The case in point here is the Les Baer Inc. Customer Service Policy.

In Les Baer's case:

1.) His customer service decision to charge return shipping (about $30) to the customer in the long run will cost him about 30 sales (about $40,000).

2.) Not fixing the gun correctly will add an additional loss of about 30 other sales (an additional $40,000).

Will Les Baer Custom go out of business. I doubt it (Rumor Control has that about 2/3 to 3/4 of his business is overseas where restrictions/regulation on the buyer and cost have basically elimated many resources/rights we in the United States take for granted). This is from personal experience (many years on jobs in Europe/Central America/Asia).

Now back to "getting what you paid for front end or back end."

Les Baer Custom is getting what he paid for. The front end saving $30 in shipping and not spending a few hours taking care of a simple repar problem cost the business about $60,000 to $80,000 on the back end.

Mark Lee will get the pistol he paid for a little later than he wanted (I guess that is on the back end). Again, I will insure that.

Will I continue to promote and sell Baer products. Yes.

Do you know about the customer service reputation before buying. Yes, I tell you that up front. Ask any who have purchased before.

Will this hurt future Baer sales, Of course it will. But that is business.

Will their be problems like this in the future will other manufacturers, gunsmiths, products, etc. Of course, You can't please everybody. Anyone who has worked any type retail business for any period of time can tell you that. Bottom line runs all.

Be safe and keep the brass flying

Terry Peters

Drive a liberal nuts. Buy a gun. In fact buy two.
 
I was never that impressed with Les Baer pistols. I know one fellow who was waiting for 6 months to get his pistol back. So I cant speak of his service too highly.
After reading this stuff - I think I would have to go Wilson Combat - or pick up one of those GUNSITE pistols from The Guru's Academy.
 
I can't believe this thread!

You mean I can buy a $130 North American Arms Minirevolver and get better service than if I buy a $1500 LB 1911? No way! This is ridiculous! Boy, I really learned something from this thread...

I'd never buy an LB gun after hearing about this.
 
Gino,

You are right. Excellent service from NAA on my $165 .22WMR revolver.
Excellent service from S&W, STI and others, but not on a assembly line "custom" $1500 1911. Makes you wonder, don't it?

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BKs Pistol Pages
 
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