Les Baer - You decide

Status
Not open for further replies.
M

mark lee

New member
I purchased a Premier II with a couple of extras, the tactical dehorning and the Ed Brown Ambi safety instead of the Baer. When I received the gun I was very impressed with the fit and finish. Everything I had read about the guns was true. Lock up was tight, the checkering was clean and perfect, the blue finish was perfect.

I cleaned the gun and lubed it with Tetra products. I dry fired it some with a snap cap in place. The next day I put 50 rounds through it in the back yard. Accuracy was better than me. No problems. I cleaned it up again and did some more dry firing.

The next week I took it to the indoor range. After 100 rounds the slide started failing to lock back occasionally. In the next 100 rounds the ambi safety started pulling apart in the back and binding. (I am left handed and use the right side of the safety.) I cleaned the gun and tapped the right side of the safety back in place. I took it to the range again and the same thing happened with both the slide and the safety in the first 50 rounds.

I cleaned it up and sent it back to Baer. Shipping was $30. I included a note stating both problems I was having with the gun. I waited two weeks and then sent the following email:

At 08:13 PM 1/30/00 -0500, you wrote:
> I'm curious as to how backed up you are on work and when I should
>expect my gun to be returned? Thanks, Mark Lee

I got the following response the next day:

Mark:

We will be fitting a new safety to the pistol and it will be ready for
shipment
early next week. Karen

I waited until Friday of the following week and called. The girl on the phone said the gun had been fixed and was being oiled that morning. She needed a credit card number for the shpping BACK to me. I was dumbfounded. I said "You want me to pay for shipping both ways on Warranty work?" Yes, she said, that was their policy. I gave her my number, and I figured I'm already $1500+ into this what's another $30.

I sent this email over the weekend:

> At 09:25 PM 2/11/00 -0500, you wrote:
> >I can't say as I'm real pleased with the service here.
> >
> >1. I didn't think I would have to send a Les Baer back for work.
> >
> >2. I don't think it should take 3 1/2 to 4 weeks to get a gun back for something like an ambi safety.
> >
> >3. As you can read below, Karen said early this week. When I called today
> >they said it had been fixed and test fired yesterday and would be shipped
> >today for arrival Monday. Not exactly early this week.
> >
> >4. I had to pay to ship it both ways. Now I understand UPS has put a damper on all of us, but why should I have to pay $60+ for warranty work?
> >
> >I certainly hope all is well with the gun this time as I can't afford much more "Warranty" work.
> >
> >As a comparison, I sent a S&W performance center revolver back to replace a
> >burned out night site, to get the barrel turned a bit, and a trigger adjustment. I had bought it used so it wasn't under warranty. I included a note telling them to please let me know how much the repairs would be. The gun was returned eight days later with no bill. I understand S&W is
bigger than you but I thought you might want to know what the competition does.
> >
> >Mark


I got the gun on Monday. The invoice said I was charged $26 for shipping. It had a new safety put on and the magazine was replaced. The thumb safety was very stiff. Engagement was good but disengagement was difficult.

I also received this response to my email:

Dear Mark:

By now, you should have received your pistol. We ship all pistols to dealers
by Registered Mail. Unfortunately, US Mail will not carry to an individual
without a Federal Firearms License. UPS has made it mandatory that all
handguns be shipped Next Day Air. We are not a large company like S&W and
therefore, UPS charges us the full rate of the Next Day Air charges. S&W
does
not pay this amount because they ship more guns on the average, per day. We
apologize for the cost of the shipping but we have tried in everyway to
expedite your pistol in a timely manner. We charged the actual amount that
UPS would charge us for the shipping with no additional.

When a customer asks about a delivery time on a pistol, that decision is made
by Les. We consult with him before passing along the information to our
customer. Everything possible was done to expedite your pistol in a timely
manner.


I cleaned the gun again and took it to the range Wednesday. The following email explains what happened:

I took the gun to the range last night. The thumb safety disengaged just
fine, but was hard, and sometimes impossible, to engage with the left thumb.
The slide only locked back 50-60 percent of the time with the new magazine.
If the slide was pulled back sling shot style on a full magazine the stop
would stay engaged until pushed down. While I was cleaning the gun I took
the grips off and the right side of the ambi safey literally fell out of the
gun. It is obvious the gun wasn't shot very much in the testing stage or
these problems would have been noticed. You slapped it back together and
got it out the door. After three weeks.

Obviously I am not happy. My original problems haven't been fixed. I got
lame excuses on my complaints. I am going to send my gun to a smith I know
will fix the problems. I wll not spend another $50+ and three weeks on you
to get problems fixed that should take one day. I will also be telling
about my experience at our local range and on thefiringline.com about what
to expect from Baer. Reliability and service? Neither. Unless, of course,
you're a big name or a gun magazine. No wonder others like Rock River and
Wilson have better reputations. I should have paid attention to the forums
on the internet.

You should be very careful in this day and age with your reputation. Word
spreads quickly on the internet. Making decisions like charging for
shipping both ways on warranty service will end up killing your business.
Three weeks to fix a slide stop and safety under warranty is unacceptable.
Promises on ship dates that are missed are unacceptable.

Mark

I sent that email on Thursday and didn't receive a response yet (Saturday morning).

I am interested in what you all think. Am I being unreasonable here, or is this the kind of service one should expect when they buy a $1500 gun?

Sorry for the long post. I was trying to make sure I told the whole story.

By the way, the dealer I bought the gun from, Terry Peters, www.flash.net/~pntlbaer/ , is working with me to take care of the problems. I can't say enough good things about Terry.

Please let me know what you think.

------------------
We are the people our parents warned us about.

[This message has been edited by mark lee (edited February 19, 2000).]
 
I'll probably never spend $1500 on a handgun, so I'm probably not qualified to say this, but I wouldn't expect that level of service. Sounds like you got a real lemon and didn't get it backed up. I would say that the absence of such problems is the only thing that could justify $1500 for any handgun. Sorry.

Is it a stupid idea for small shops to include as a warranty option the option to use a local gunsmith and have the shop reimburse you?

OK, I was away a couple of minutes, thought that over, and it probably is a stupid idea. After all, the whole point is the shop trading their gunsmithing ability for cash, not the other way around. And there would have to be some system in place for them to make sure they weren't getting ripped off by the smiths. Never mind.
 
Sorry to hear about your experience, it sounds very frustrating.

No, your not being unreasonable, your letter seemed very professional and to the point. It makes me curious to hear how they respond
 
Mark, I certainly don't think you were being unreasonable...it's a darn shame that you can't get anything done any more without having to raise Hell about it...: :D

------------------
A MASTER OF HIS ART REVEALS IT IN EVERYTHING HE DOES
 
Mark,

Well, unfortunately. it sounds like all the other Baer customer service horror stories I have heard "We don't make mistakes" and then charge you for it. It sounds like one of two things is the problem as far as the lock back problem goes.

1)The slide stop pin is too tight in the hole. Take the slide off the gun and put the slide stop pin in the lower. Can it be moved up and down easily? If so, then it's not the problem. If the pin is stiff going into the hole or moves up and down hard then the hole is tight.

2)When the slide stop is in frame, put the slide back on the frame without the barrel, and then push the slide stop up into the slide duplicating the lock back. Now sling shot it and see if it releases without the barrel in the gun. If so, then the problem is the fit of the barrel underlug/link. Look at the front of the underlug and see if you can see a deep rub or gouge mark where the slide stop pin wedges up against the lug. There should be a marring of the finish but not a gouge.

3)The plunger tube spring can be too strong and keeps the slide stop from releasing or locking up. This tends to be the most common problem I see on some peoples guns.

As far as the ambi problem goes, take the standard side and you'll see the key cut in the center of the pin. Put that in a vise and slight, gently squeeze it to very slightly reduce the clearance of the cut, then put it back together. It should be stiff going together and this will keep them from separating.

Brian www.1911custom.com
 
Now after reading your post Mark, I'm a bit nervous with my Les Baer that is on order. I took placed an order with Terry Peters www.pt-partners.com . I can not say enough good things about Terry. He's the true meaning of helpful and professional. If any of you are considering buying a nice 1911, give Terry a call. You won't be disappointed with his service.

Since I was having work done on my house, I only sent Terry $700 to hold it for 60 days. Once I get my Baer, I'll post on how it fires. Wish me luck.

------------------
Svt
RKBA! NRA, GOA, VFW
Son's Place

"Rangers Lead the Way"
 
Mr. Bilby, you're a credit to TFL. Few professionals in any area would be willing to lay out their expertise way you just did. If I ever have a 1911 and money in my pocket at the same time I'll remember who I want to send my gun to.
 
Mark, there's a thead about an unhappy Baer customer over at Shooters in the 1911 section. His experience is very similar to yours. I would ask your dealer to send it back and then try to get your money back. In other words, cut your losses.

I've been bitten by the 1911 bug at times but come to my senses every time I read a story like yours. I'll never understand the appeal of a pistol that you pay top dollar for and then have to have it tweaked by a smith. Then you have to find that special marriage of pistol and magazine inorder for it to function properly. How many times have your heard this statement, "it's not the gun but the magazine." I don't think it's asking too much to expect the magazine to function with the gun. It's like buying a new car and then having to replace the transmission with one that works. I don't get it.

I've read many reviews over the years about these "Custom pistols" and I am amazed at the problems they encounter; failures to feed, sights falling off, slides failing to lock back or locking back on a half empty mag, poor accuracy, you name it, I've read it. If you think I'm being unfare, just read the threads here and at other boards.

When one considers that you can buy a state of the art revolver like the S&W 686 that will out shoot most custom 1911's and be had for around $400, the 1911's look like poor values indeed. The Sig p210 and Hk P7 look like bargains compared to these high-end 1911's.

I hate to add insult to injury, but it makes me angry to see people like you spend their hard earned money and get screwed by these "Custom Pistol" manufacturers. Put the word out on these guys.

Good luck. I hope you get your money back and get some satisfaction from them. JohnH



[This message has been edited by JohnH (edited February 19, 2000).]

[This message has been edited by JohnH (edited February 19, 2000).]
 
Thanks for all the comments, especially Brian jumping in to try and help me out. JohnH, I can't disagree with you logic here. I have a 3" ported S&W 686+ from the performance center. This one has all the accuracy I need, although as noted above it had to go back for some minor work. I was just trying something different. I've gone through more guns than I would admit to. Early on I read too many gun mag articles about the "Perfect gun" and finally realized I needed to spend more time shooting and less time and money on magazines. I just really like the 1911 but I'm not willing to put up with having to baby it all the time. I guess my favorite all time gun would have to be the Sig 228. As far as reliability, accuracy, and fun to shoot it tops my list. Just my own observations as I'm not around all types of guns as others here are.

Mark
 
Well, cant say I am surprised.

I had a lightweight Commanchee I used for carry. Many problems, one or two major,and a few annoying minor things.

The feeling I had was that I ended up with an overpriced parts gun.

My guess is that since they have grown so fast,maybe they dont have enough craftsmen to handle all the details. I dont know for sure,just an opinion.

I do however,know a few things for sure that the company is without a doubt #1 at. Marketing,advertising,and smoozing gun writers.

Then I realized I could get 3 loaded Springfields for what the Baer costs. And the Springfield folks are serious about customer service.

It costs money to learn, as they say.
 
I am sorry to hear of your problems. It seems very odd because I have 2 Baer's and have asked numerous email questions about my guns to Les and always got a response.

I think you are being very professional and keep up the careful dialog.

My 2 Baer's are both several years old with no problems or errors. I have nothing but good things to say about them and would not even consider another 1911 that was not a Baer.

------------------
P229 Sport and 357 SIG, Perfection!
 
Well, this is the reason I got into the business of custom 1911's over 10 years ago. I had a big name gunsmith build me a 38 Super 1911 back then that had several problems. The safety didn't work, the gun jammed and it didn't shoot straight. He wouldn't do squat about it so I started to build my own, then my friends and it grew from there.

I think Baers problem is that they build the guns way too tight, don't test fire them to check function and then tell the customer to fire it a lot to break it in. Well, that's bunk. A gun doesn't need to be that tight to be accurate. I know. I build my package guns to be tight, but the slide can be retracted with normal effort and I test fire every gun with at least four different types of ammo and bullet styles to insure reliability before finishing. After finishing it only needs about 3 mags to break in then it will work so long as you do your job.

The 1911 game wether it's production guns like Kimber or custom guns like Baer have become a marketing game where the one who advertises the most and gives away the most guns to gunwriters gets the press and allot of that press is bunk. I read articles all the time on custom guns and the author just repeats whatever crap the gunsmith tells him because he doesn't know any better or the gun is given to him in exchange for a good article. I have heard several stories from pistolsmiths talking about how they had to give Author A this gun or Author B got a all expense paid hunting trip in Africa from a pistolsmith and low and behold, three cover stories in a year on that pistolsmiths guns.

Read between the lines, and look into the history of the author. Does he have a background in firearms or law enforcement or does he have a degree in journalism and marketing?

Brian
 
Dang my next 1911 was going to be a Les Baer ,but now i might have to go with the wilson atleast ive dealt with him over the years and have not had a problem.
 
I have a Wilson Combat Service Grade Protector,after 16,000 rounds the ejector became loose,a call to Wilsons and they told me to send the pistol back and they would get right on it.I sent them the pistol and in 4 working days from the day they got the pistol I had it back with a new ejector no charge or no shipping charge.Wilsons have Great guns and customer service second to none.I am so impressed with there service and products that I just ordered one of there Ar Rifles.BILLG
 
Mark, thank you for the posting. I was considering between Wilson, Ed Brown and Les. But now after reading your story and others, I think I will stick with Wilson. I always feel gun owners are being ripped off by the manufactures. They hide behind federal firearm regulations. If you were buying a $1500 consumer electronics, you woulld have at least 30 days to just demand a new item to replace your broken one. Only in the gun industry do we suffer with this kind of crap.
 
Thanks so much for this thread.
I was just lusting over getting a high end 1911. I love my Glocks but I was thinking of getting a fun gun. I figured I would go with the best. I have heard enough bad stuff about Wilson to rethink them (like they just put together guns from parts, they dont really MAKE anything). So, I was down to deciding between a Les Baer or an Ed Brown. I was impressed that Les Baer makes their own parts an dI was going to go with them, but after reading this thread I will NOT ever be buying a Les Baer. I was thinking of buying a Commander size and a Gov't size. Les Baer just lost two sales from me, as well as many other people that are reading this thread.
The number one reason I wanted to buy a Les Baer is because I thought it would be as reliable as my Glock, as well as being accurate and be well put together. I see now that a Les Baer is just a waste of $1500.
I don't care how much good press I hear from here on out, one bad real experience like this is enough to make me look elsewhere. There are just way too many competitors.
I think I will have Brian Bilby build me a 1911 after how kind he was to tell you how to fix your gun for free.
So, now I am down to an Ed Brown or a totally custom built gun from a good smith.
 
Word of mouth can be deadly for any business.
I have to admit I may have been "Sucked" into the Les Baer marketing machine.
Having been interested in buying a custom .45 for some time now I think I'll steer clear of Baer until I hear something more positive. The guns sure do look great but at that price why bother if it falls apart after a few trips to the range.
Mark what do you think of your S&W 686 ? I'm looking into revolvers also.
Regards and good luck
 
Bah...I wouldn't deal with Les Baer...too much ego BS and they don't care about the customer at all.

When funds allow, my next 1911 will be built by Brian Bilby. No matter how long the wait is.
 
I sent the following email to Baer this morning:


I didn't receive a response from my last email to you on Thursday.

In case you think I was wrong about how you treat customers and how it spreads in the internet, check this out:
[Link to invalid post]

If you feel I misrepresented your side at all please take the time to respond on the forum. All of us on the forums appreciate input from manufacturers.

Mark

Again, thanks for your responses. We'll see if he takes the time to respond.

Mark


------------------
We are the people our parents warned us about.
 
I want to make a couple of things clear here. Some of the things I have said can be interpreted broadly. First off, I've never said that Les is a crook or untrustworthy. I don't know that to be true and do not infer that. Actually Les can be thanked in some respects for some things he has done in the industry.
Secondly, I'm not saying you shouldn't buy a Baer gun because they are junk. They are not. What I am saying is look into anything you buy. Listen to people who have what you want to buy, not magazine articles. I know many people who have Baer guns that work great. I have also talked to people who have had problems, and those people all say the same. There was no decent after sale customer service. In this business you have to compete on a equal level with your competitor. Wilson has a no-crap warranty. I know of people who have had guns or mags take a puke after 5 years of hard service and were repaired or replaced free of charge and on a timely basis. If you want to compete with him then you should offer the same.

I am also not saying that Les specifically gave guns to gunwriters. I know other smiths have. I'm just saying it happens. In Les' case I doubt he did as if he can't afford to pay shipping back on a warranty case, then he can't afford to give a gun away. I'm saying I don't know about him doing it. I am saying that it's very hard for a magzine to give a negative review to a company that buys two full page ads per issue that ad up to $15K. Look at the whole FBI HRT thing. Every mag pumps up how he won the HRT contract for the Para guns, and he advertises it in his catalogs and ads but, don't finish the story. Look into that.

Here's my final view, look into the facts of each smith or manufacturer. Does he really do what he says, does he really make all his parts or whatever he claims, how's his customer service, how is he with dealing with his customers after the sale?

If Les would get his customer service up to spec, and paid a little more attention to the details of the guns, his guns would be the best production customs out there.

I don't know Les personally, and he might be a nice guy. I'm not knocking him because he is a competitor, as I don't play those petty games. I frequently recommend other smiths to people. I will now to prove my point. Gunsmiths that I would use or recommmend other than me-

Richard Heinie,
Marc Krebs,
Kurt Wickman,
Dane Burns,
Rock River Arms,
Art Leckie,
Springfield Custom,
Wilson Combat,
and a few others I can't remember right now. I think that a one man shop who builds guns to your specs is the best choice no matter what.

These are just my opinions and I may be wrong.

Brian
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top