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LEO's make a mess at the range!
- Thread starter Sierra280
- Start date
If a range is posted as "closed every tuesday from 1-4 for Law Enforcement" or something similar I wouldn't have a problem with it. If it is random and unknown in advance then yeah it would be irritating. Heck around here folks would be waiting outside the range at 4 to slurp up the brass. I certainly don't have a problem with LEO's closing the range to public use during their qualifications, but they might let someone watch, could be fun for about 10 minutes. They might have an agreement with someone on qualification dates to come out at say 6 p.m. and clean the range for them, or even bring out a trustee or two to do the clean up. You just don't know.
Our private range (leased land from City) receives donations from the local municipal police forces to use the range. A large portion of the justification to keep the range open is for local law enforcement practice.
They close down the whole range maybe once a month, in the morning during the week. We even made a dedicated range for them, so the target backers didn't need replacing so often from the shotguns.
Can't count the number of .40 and 223 brass have picked up over the years. it is what finally got me to buy a .40, just for the economy of the free brass.
They close down the whole range maybe once a month, in the morning during the week. We even made a dedicated range for them, so the target backers didn't need replacing so often from the shotguns.
Can't count the number of .40 and 223 brass have picked up over the years. it is what finally got me to buy a .40, just for the economy of the free brass.
bamaranger
New member
reduced light
We do our shoots in the PM/evening. Courses of fire in daylight and reduced light, "reduced light" which can mean twilight to darkness with headlights depending on how things go. Reduced light quals are required by policy.
Morning shoots only do indeed seem a bit odd.
Sierra, I will give you this, by taking your issue to meeting, you have put your money where you mouth is, or in this case, your text.
I hope you see a resolution to the problem.
Any chance that the SO could get "trustees" to do a regular clean up after their sessions, while still closed?
We do our shoots in the PM/evening. Courses of fire in daylight and reduced light, "reduced light" which can mean twilight to darkness with headlights depending on how things go. Reduced light quals are required by policy.
Morning shoots only do indeed seem a bit odd.
Sierra, I will give you this, by taking your issue to meeting, you have put your money where you mouth is, or in this case, your text.
I hope you see a resolution to the problem.
Any chance that the SO could get "trustees" to do a regular clean up after their sessions, while still closed?
Unlicensed Dremel
Moderator
Sounds like political action is needed. Ask for an in-person meeting with your county commissioner / other county officials. Take pics and other evidence. Express your concerns / complaints. Follow it up with a snail mail letter.
zincwarrior
New member
Be happy you have a public range range run by the county at all. I've never seen such in Texas.
My question is; why is it more fair to make the SO alternate the times when the majority of citizens are at work in the am and you have all the other days?
Seems to me you don't want to share. You my friend have tunnel vision. I think there was much thought put into which days they choose. It seems they are balancing staff needs and community use patterns.
Face it you just want to use the range when you want. When it is the least crowded and only in AM.
IMHO, they should close it all week and give it to the public on the week end and on holidays. I am sure that the SO is a huge reason the range is even there.
Sorry to hurt your feelings in advance. I believe in being up front and blunt.
Mel
Seems to me you don't want to share. You my friend have tunnel vision. I think there was much thought put into which days they choose. It seems they are balancing staff needs and community use patterns.
Face it you just want to use the range when you want. When it is the least crowded and only in AM.
IMHO, they should close it all week and give it to the public on the week end and on holidays. I am sure that the SO is a huge reason the range is even there.
Sorry to hurt your feelings in advance. I believe in being up front and blunt.
Mel
Ugg, spent all morning in the library going over the county regulations. I couldn't find anything about goverment agencies reserving/using public park (or non-park) facilities (excluding the public) for free. Parks and Rec. dept, regs said anyone or group may reserve a park or non park facility after paying a non refundable application fee and may be approved by director for use with applicable fees for facility use, staff needed etc. (basically all possible applicable charges that it runs the county to maintain and clean up after you).
It also states (seperate regulation) that county sheriffs or other goverment agencies may only close a park, or nonpark facility to exclude the public in the event of an emergency or when it concerns public safety.
Again, I'm initially only asking they alternate the SO schedule at the range. But if that is not possible, they should either have to pay the appropiate fees anyother group or individual would have to pay to reserve it, or share.
Safety concerns for the public, isn't a good excuse as everyone entering the range must sign, saying they read and understand the safety rules and any violation will result in expulsion.
It also states (seperate regulation) that county sheriffs or other goverment agencies may only close a park, or nonpark facility to exclude the public in the event of an emergency or when it concerns public safety.
Again, I'm initially only asking they alternate the SO schedule at the range. But if that is not possible, they should either have to pay the appropiate fees anyother group or individual would have to pay to reserve it, or share.
Safety concerns for the public, isn't a good excuse as everyone entering the range must sign, saying they read and understand the safety rules and any violation will result in expulsion.
Fishing_Cabin
New member
Sierra280 said:I couldn't find anything about goverment agencies reserving/using public park (or non-park) facilities (excluding the public) for free...
Generally in my area, public agencies are exempt from fees for using publicly owned facilities or equipment, with the exception of the community college (different set of rules) or if extra personnel needed. If it were not there would be lots of money going round in circles all the time. It probably will not be listed in the codes for parks and rec, but more than likely in the administrative side.
As to the open or private use...The LE ranges here have always been totally private. Years ago until the late 90's early 2000's almost every town/city/county had their own private "range." Oddly enough, all the ones I ever knew of or used were a grass lot at a sewer plant or landfill, backing up to a hill. If we were lucky there were a few 4x4 post and a cable up to hold targets. That's all there was then, and they were all closed due to complaints of noise, cost, etc. Now the community college has a range it built (le training use only), air conditioned classrooms, etc. What am I getting at? Just because the cost of a local ranges were "eliminated", someone is paying for the new range, its just hidden in the "tuition exempt" mantra. Nothing is free, so be careful what you wish for when going in to the cost or fee structure aspect.
Sierra, I can understand your frustration. I am both a paying range member and LE user. I've spent most of my adult life in LE but have never learned of any secret techniques that must be hidden from the public. But, perhaps they've been hidden from me too. At the large dept. where I worked for 2/3 of my carreer, we had our own range. We did have to police up all our brass, trash, etc. The smaller dept. I worked shares a pubic range on Forest Service land. We rarely intrude on the main covered/public range and, at times, we are training and/or qualifying while most of the range is still open to the public. In any case we have to pick up all our brass, pick up all trash, carry it away in our own large trash bags, etc.
Our, range does it's best to advise members of LE usage, but there is sometimes last minute LE range use stuff posted at the gate that would be unknown till someone actually drove out to the range (couple miles off the main road). But even when this happens, the public/members can still use the rest of the range.
Our, range does it's best to advise members of LE usage, but there is sometimes last minute LE range use stuff posted at the gate that would be unknown till someone actually drove out to the range (couple miles off the main road). But even when this happens, the public/members can still use the rest of the range.
^^2 days last week, usually 4 days per month, that's about a month and a half a year that the public is being excluded from a public facility. 4-h, Boy Scouts or anyone else can reserve and use the facility privately (excluding the public) for a fee. If I learned that said groups were reserving a public park, paid for by the tax payers (plus up keep) and violating county regs by getting it for free whilst excluding the public, I would have just the same beef.
Answer this: If it's perfectly okay for Police to close the public range at no cost because they have to train/qualify with their firearms, should we then allow them close down large sections of public (county) streets and roads at no cost when their vehicle driving training/qualification takes place?? [which, yes, anyone could do, movie productions do it all the time, AT A COST, to cover upkeep, maintanence, and ancillary costs]
I thought I wouldn't be so alone in bringing up an issue which directly relates to fiscal responsibility and governmental abuses of power; but apparently Didnt realize that public servants (like LEOs) are above reproach
Answer this: If it's perfectly okay for Police to close the public range at no cost because they have to train/qualify with their firearms, should we then allow them close down large sections of public (county) streets and roads at no cost when their vehicle driving training/qualification takes place?? [which, yes, anyone could do, movie productions do it all the time, AT A COST, to cover upkeep, maintanence, and ancillary costs]
I thought I wouldn't be so alone in bringing up an issue which directly relates to fiscal responsibility and governmental abuses of power; but apparently Didnt realize that public servants (like LEOs) are above reproach
I was discussing this issue and thread with my wife. She is a very level headed person and often sees things I miss.
Her only comment after reading this thread was, "Isn't it wonderful that the County has such facilities open to the public and only requests a relatively few days a year for a COUNTY department to train in order to keep the county citizens safe and wouldn't it be sad if the county decided to take it's property and close it to the public."
She is absolutely right. If they wanted to they could close it for liability reasons and then the only people that would be able to use it would be LEO agencies.
The number of days they use the range per year is so few that you and every other citizen could surely work around this. Especially if the closed days and times are dully posted where you can find it and plan appropriately.
It seems that you just want what you want when you want it and the heck with anyone else.
Have you ever thought that there may be people that would be upset with you if you were successful? For instance, what about the people that want to shoot in the afternoon when you want the SO to have the range?
IMHO this is a can of worms you are liable to not like when open.
Mel
Her only comment after reading this thread was, "Isn't it wonderful that the County has such facilities open to the public and only requests a relatively few days a year for a COUNTY department to train in order to keep the county citizens safe and wouldn't it be sad if the county decided to take it's property and close it to the public."
She is absolutely right. If they wanted to they could close it for liability reasons and then the only people that would be able to use it would be LEO agencies.
The number of days they use the range per year is so few that you and every other citizen could surely work around this. Especially if the closed days and times are dully posted where you can find it and plan appropriately.
It seems that you just want what you want when you want it and the heck with anyone else.
Have you ever thought that there may be people that would be upset with you if you were successful? For instance, what about the people that want to shoot in the afternoon when you want the SO to have the range?
IMHO this is a can of worms you are liable to not like when open.
Mel
Uncle Buck
New member
You keep mentioning public funds.
Where does the LEO's get their funding from?
Where does the Parks and Board Department get their funds?
It is all the same money, just different pots, which your tax dollars are used. Perhaps it would be better if the LEO's used the money allocated to them to rent a private range, thus depriving the public those funds and putting it in the hands of a private corporation would be better.
I would not even bring up the money aspect of this. Address the fact that you feel there is no need to close the entire range. Ask the sheriffs office for their range qualification course. (They may have to move to different locations on the range in order to qualify, thereby necessitating the closure so they can qualify.)
I bet you find it is a safety issue and not one which is meant to unduly burden the public.
As for the cement block, like another poster mentioned, how do you know it was the SO that did it? Could it have been left there from the night before, perhaps another shooter decided he/she wanted to test out cement busting rounds they had developed.
Te brass is another issue. The only reason I go to the public range anymore is to pick-up brass. If I found out you were the one who caused it all to suddenly disappear, to say I would be upset is a misstatement. You would be surprised how many people appreciate that brass.
Where does the LEO's get their funding from?
Where does the Parks and Board Department get their funds?
It is all the same money, just different pots, which your tax dollars are used. Perhaps it would be better if the LEO's used the money allocated to them to rent a private range, thus depriving the public those funds and putting it in the hands of a private corporation would be better.
I would not even bring up the money aspect of this. Address the fact that you feel there is no need to close the entire range. Ask the sheriffs office for their range qualification course. (They may have to move to different locations on the range in order to qualify, thereby necessitating the closure so they can qualify.)
I bet you find it is a safety issue and not one which is meant to unduly burden the public.
As for the cement block, like another poster mentioned, how do you know it was the SO that did it? Could it have been left there from the night before, perhaps another shooter decided he/she wanted to test out cement busting rounds they had developed.
Te brass is another issue. The only reason I go to the public range anymore is to pick-up brass. If I found out you were the one who caused it all to suddenly disappear, to say I would be upset is a misstatement. You would be surprised how many people appreciate that brass.
Fishing_Cabin
New member
Sierra280 said:I just saw the online schedule for my local county shooting range and the sheriffs dept has it closed 'for training' tues-thurs of this week. Both my shooting buddy and myself have new guns we wanted to take out this week, arrrgghh...
So, by the "local county shooting range" am I to imply, it is county owned, or the county has at least an ownership stake? I havent seen if you mentioned otherwise, so I can only assume...
Sierra280 said:...4-h, Boy Scouts or anyone else can reserve and use the facility privately (excluding the public) for a fee. If I learned that said groups were reserving a public park, paid for by the tax payers (plus up keep) and violating county regs by getting it for free whilst excluding the public, I would have just the same beef...
4-H and the Boy Scouts are typically non-profit type groups, and not a part of the government which owns the property in question. I know of some places which exempt non-profits from such fees, and others that do not. (I am assuming since you said county again). Also, in most, if not all places (at least here) the Sheriff's Department is operated by county, though with an elected person in charge of that Department, but still its county.
So, let me get this straight, you basically want the county to pay the county, for the use of county property by the county itself. Right?
Sierra280 said:Answer this: If it's perfectly okay for Police to close the public range at no cost because they have to train/qualify with their firearms, should we then allow them close down large sections of public (county) streets and roads at no cost when their vehicle driving training/qualification takes place?? [which, yes, anyone could do, movie productions do it all the time, AT A COST, to cover upkeep, maintanence, and ancillary costs]
Actually in years past I do remember it at times, they closed off a dead end section of road that was not built up in a business park for basic driving courses when the business were closed on the weekends. Some places may still do something similar. The fire departments still block off that same area when they do hose testing so they can stretch out a lot of hose, plus there is a hydrant at the end. Its just an empty dead end area that's not used otherwise. Never known of any county or city to charge itself for using its own county/city property. If they did it would probably make the budget extremely complex.
A lot of cop bashing... maybe thats one reason they dont want others on the range with them.
The reality is this. Police firearms training and qualification is more than just range time. Much of the training is done at the range. It'd be difficult for an instructor to lecture and demonstrate while others are popping off shots. Range safety involves everyone at the range, and everyone on the line. Everyone must be on the same page. It would be difficult for the police range officers to control everyone including those not involved in their program.
There are techniques, and information that go on during police training that is not for public consumption. The police are entitled to that tectical edge.
I cant see any reason why individual officers wouldnt be required to police up their own brass... Thats fundimental. I know my department used trustees to clean the range. It's possible the range was left in poor condition awaiting a detail of inmates to be shedualed.
Usually there is a reasonable answer to most questions posed to intelligent people.
The reality is this. Police firearms training and qualification is more than just range time. Much of the training is done at the range. It'd be difficult for an instructor to lecture and demonstrate while others are popping off shots. Range safety involves everyone at the range, and everyone on the line. Everyone must be on the same page. It would be difficult for the police range officers to control everyone including those not involved in their program.
There are techniques, and information that go on during police training that is not for public consumption. The police are entitled to that tectical edge.
I cant see any reason why individual officers wouldnt be required to police up their own brass... Thats fundimental. I know my department used trustees to clean the range. It's possible the range was left in poor condition awaiting a detail of inmates to be shedualed.
Usually there is a reasonable answer to most questions posed to intelligent people.
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So, let me get this straight, you basically want the county to pay the county, for the use of county property by the county itself. Right?
Right. And by that logic, Postal Employees should have to pay to go to work where they occupy governmental space. Fire Fighters should have to pay to go to work where they occupy governmental space. Ditto to the water company folks, turdwater treatment facility folks, courts, etc. And I guess County health officials should just be ran out of town lest they encroach on a public accessible space and shut it down because it's selling tainted food and making folks sick.
LEO type training is not just standing static at one distance. It often involves moving and shooting forwards, backwards, right and left. Youtube up some IDPA videos- that's what we mostly do. Qualification is only a small percentage of our shooting.
Why shoot so much? Because the trend is again liability based. Folks will sue anybody for nearly anything- and who's the favorite lawsuit targets? The folks with the money. Law enforcement agencies have money. We're taught that in the past 7-8 years, that we can be held just as liable for training to the standard as we are for insufficient training. So, we're told to train more. Does that make the agency law suit-proof? No, but when it comes to liability and/or vicarious liability- ANYBODY will take whatever edge they can get.
Sierra-
"INITIALLY"... So, if you don't get the satisfaction of showing The Man who's the boss in the first round, you already have a backup plan to get even with them, huh? And you regress to saying LEO's are beyond reproach.Again, I'm initially only asking they alternate the SO schedule at the range.