LEO- disarming question

Rule #1. Go home at end of shift. mission accomplished.


One little trick I picked up at the academy..... (assuming some sort of compliance). If you can get them kneeling, have them cross their ankles, then have them sit back on their own feet. Give them about 2 minutes of waiting for their legs to go numb. And, if you're really worried about them getting froggy, stand on one of their crossed feet :)
 
Coop, why didn't the dispatcher send more than one unit to a call such as that? Three males loading guns into a car in D.C.--not the time for the lone rangers or two rangers in one car. It sounds as if such calls have become commonplace and the guard has dropped. It is the "just another false alarm" problem that gets people killed.

It sounds like a classic felony car stop where the perps need to be defanged by a team of officers never leaving cover.

They're having budget problems in D.C. and want you to spread yourself thin, it sounds like. I'm glad you made it back home. Maybe the Virginia suburbs are hiring. God bless.
 
So, question.... something we didn't learn in the academy.

You're drawn on a suspect with gun... how to disarm? All the perps we contact run, and I'm not gonna shoot someone in the back unless warranted. He made no threatening gestures towards myself or any other. Of course I could have written whatever I wanted....

Any thoughts?
Click to expand...

Cuff him first and fast? If you can't do that, pretend you didn't see his gun, quickly get right up on him, stick your gun in his ear and grab his? If he runs, and he has his gun in his hand and you're not going to shoot him, I'd let him go. He has the advantage and there's no sense letting him shoot you for what may be nothing more than a weapons violation. A former coworker was killed in a similar situation. In the old days if you ran from a cop with a gun in your hand and kept going when he told you to stop, you know what would happen. I chased a 15 year old once who I thought was probably an enforcer for a drug dealer. He bailed out of a car with 3 other young guys, all heavily armed. Shotguns, AR-15's AK-47's pistols and a lot of ammo. He was a good 50 yards ahead of me going into the neighborhood. I never did that again. He could have popped me any time he wanted to and been released when he turned 21. The risk did not come close to equalling the potential reward.

I will never, ever chase someone with a gun into a situation where they hold all the cards because I am not allowed to shoot him while he's escaping based on department policy. And it WOULD be because of department policy, because in this state, you can not be prosecuted for shooting a fleeing felon.
 
They sent us in alone because we had two people. We usually ride alone and in that case they would send two cars. These calls come out every hour and usually it's nothing. They're gone before we get there.

I got something funny though.

Chief had his cruiser stolen yesterday from in front of his house....
 
You're drawn on a suspect with gun... how to disarm? All the perps we contact run, and I'm not gonna shoot someone in the back unless warranted. He made no threatening gestures towards myself or any other. Of course I could have written whatever I wanted....
Click to expand...
Interesting.
 
Just wanted to chime in with my two cents here, but before I do I'd like to say that I think you handled the situation perfectly. An extremely dangerous situation which, in the end, didn't result in anyone being carried by six OR judged by twelve. (And I'm, of course, referring to the GGs here since the BGs will, without a doubt, have their day in court or in a box soon enough)

The armed non-compliant/fleeing felon has to be one of the most difficult tactical situations we can ever be faced with. Even if you do manage to run the kid down, now you're in a one-handed wrestling match with someone that, while equally impaired, isn't burdened with any sense of responsibility for public safety when it comes to that lead-slinging hogleg still clutched in his remaining meathook. There's just not many ways that scenario can play out that end happily.

There have been a lot of good suggestions on handling the situation safely, but really the only method that we know for CERTAIN results in an acceptable outcome is the one that really happened.

As SCCop suggested, I've also been giving a lot of thought (and probably too little practice) to using my weak hand to draw my Taser and providing my own lethal cover for a non-lethal takedown. I'm sure this violates a handful of policies and is at least a bad idea for a number of reasons, but it's also something that I may have to do someday in a situation just like this one. So probably worth rehearsing a bit.

Now all that being said, one technique that I've used to gain a tactical advantage in a number of situations similar to this is the old Barney Fife routine. It never ceases to amaze me how much of a positional advantage you can gain on someone by just playing dumb. The stupid cop is every BGs wet dream...they want cops to be slackjawed yokels..so they're all too eager to believe a little bit of swagger and "Y'all boys having some car trouble here?" This is most effective when you work with a regular partner or a relatively close shift that can pick up on when you go into Fife mode and get their spider-sense tingling. Play it cool enough and you might even be able to swagger yourself into a position where you can, through rapid and violent application of physical force, take the armed subject to the ground and have him disarmed or at least in a position where he cannot possibly access the weapon before he even realizes that he's been played.

Then again, if you try the routine and fail to sell it, you might just end up back at the beginning of this post...carried by six or judged by twelve.

Like I said, only one method has been tried and tested in this exact scenario, and it worked. So if it aint broke....

Nice job Coop.

-Decaff
 
And it WOULD be because of department policy, because in this state, you can not be prosecuted for shooting a fleeing felon.
Click to expand...
Really, Frank? So TN v Garner doesn't apply in your state? :) (I'm assuming you mean escaping prisoner.)
 
Fleeing felon is a catch all. Or a catch none.

Not only does the person fleeing have to be a felon, but you must believe that you or another is in imminent/ immediate danger of death or grave injury.

If there was a dead victim on the ground and I knew this guy did it, then yeah, I'd pop him in the back... easy shot.

Coop
 
JJ&E, all in one?

No. Protecting the innocent third person he may run into after showing that he has little or no regard for human life by having just killed someone else and is fleeing into a public place, still armed, that contains lots of innocents and hostages for the taking, that hardly qualifies as JJ&E. If an armed suspect were running into a shopping mall or a day care, I may feel I need to shoot him. If his back is whats available, so be it.

I could argue, honestly, that Coop de Ville took too many chances ordering this guy to drop the gun. How many times should we be expected to order someone to drop a gun? Is his non compliance his way of buying time or building courage to draw his weapon? My uniform is the first symbol of authority, the marked car etc. Next comes my verbal order to comply, I have an armed subject, who is capable of using deadly force against me, or my partner or anyone else, in less than two seconds, who is refusing to obey my lawful orders. I have had many, many confrontations with armed suspects and citizens alike, the good guys obey your orders, the bad guys, bolt and run, or comply.

Techbrute, I'm honestly curious, why does that seem strange or bothersome to you?

Honestly, Coop, I was just using that as an example, many bad guys have gotten away from me in 20 years of doing this, given the situation you had, you did everything right, I would not have shot him either, until I saw the first hint of him reaching for the gun, but, I wouldn't fault an Officer, or citizen for feeling justifiably in fear of their lives when there is an armed guy, within touching distance, that refuses to comply. You chase him, at as safe a dsitance as you can, until you can get help there, or, you lose sight of him. The fact that he did not pitch the gun is actually more bothersome to me than anything, and what you took for him holding the gun while he ran, may very well have been him trying to drag it out of his baggy pants and the front sight was caught on one of the three pairs of pants he was wearing under his street clothes (if your bad guys are anything like ours, they are big believers in the "layering" method)
 
JJ&E, all in one?

No. Protecting the innocent third person he may run into after showing that he has little or no regard for human life by having just killed someone else and is fleeing into a public place, still armed, that contains lots of innocents and hostages for the taking, that hardly qualifies as JJ&E. If an armed suspect were running into a shopping mall or a day care, I may feel I need to shoot him. If his back is whats available, so be it.
Click to expand...
I hope I wasn't expected to derive everything you wrote in the above paragraph from, "If there was a dead victim on the ground and I knew this guy did it, then yeah, I'd pop him in the back... easy shot." You certainly did a better job of explaining why you'd do that. I don't know, nor is it my direct concern, if that is legal is all areas, etc. CDV didn't clarify if he'd just shoot some guy that he "knew" (another discussion entirely) did it in the back. He didn't say that person would need to be armed, fleeing into a public place, a known felon, etc.

Techbrute, I'm honestly curious, why does that seem strange or bothersome to you?
Click to expand...
I'm not sure what you're referring to. My two prior posts in this thread commented that I found it interesting that a professional law enforcement officer would make an off-handed comment that he could write whatever he wanted on a police report, and a comment intended to spark some expansion of his comment about shooting an unknown in the back. I hope you aren't bothered by the fact that a citizen of the US might raise an eyebrow about a LEO commenting that he'd shoot a person in the back without expanding on it.

In regards to the original post, I'm not a LEO and have no desire to be. If in that position, I'm not sure I would have been as tolerant of a suspect fondling his sidearm while refusing to comply with a direct order.
 
Techbrute, I'm honestly curious, why does that seem strange or bothersome to you?

I was refering to the shooting a guy standing over a dead body. That is what I envisioned when that scenario came forth. I did indeed further clarify the scenario as I saw it and to me, that would have been justified. Its a pretty common scenario for training and justification of deadly force. The justification ends if he surrenders or throws down the weapon, as far as I know, it might be a good citizen shooting bad citizen, so, there will be a moment of letting him do the right thing, if he chooses to do so, unfortunatly, not a whole lot of time because my self preservation instinct will be kicking in shortly.
 
If you're shooting a guy with a smoking gun standing over a dead body saying, "take that!", that's probably justified, and I don't find that bothersome.

If you're shooting a guy just because he's standing over a dead body, no gun in sight, and you're just "sure" that he did it, yeah, I find that bothersome.

Again, clarifying your scenario goes a long way.
 
Really, Frank? So TN v Garner doesn't apply in your state? (I'm assuming you mean escaping prisoner.)
Click to expand...

Yes, really. TN v Garner was a civil case, not a criminal case. TN v Garner said the police can be held CIVILLY responsible for shooting a fleeing felon who poses no imminent threat to the police or public. Not criminally responsible. And I meant fleeing felon. Any fleeing felon. In MI, when you shoot a fleeing felon who poses absoutely no threat to you, you will not be prosecuted. You will very likely be fired, and cost your city a couple million, but you will not be charged, and you'll have a good chance at getting your job back.

Police departments generally quote TN v. Garner in their policy, and they love to have you think that if you shoot a fleeing burglar in the back you'll go to prison forever based on TN v. Garner, but it just ain't so. You may go to prison based on some other state law in some other state, but that won't happen in MI, and in other states, it won't be based solely on TN v Garner. I suspect, but am not sure, that other states may have passed some type of statute based on TN v. Garner that criminalizes shooting a non-dangerous fleeing felon, but not MI.
 
Last edited:
Let me clarify.

In reference to writing "anything," The meaning behind that is that every action or, more specifically, use of force, requires a lot of writing. This aids IAD in their investigation... it also trips you up, depending on what you write. What I meant to convey, is that I am an honest person who would not shoot someone unless I believed my life or someone elses was in danger. But, in reality, there are people who will shoot just to get a vacation...

When you act you must write. I just got home from writing about getting hit by a red light camera... yes, I was dispatched to a priority assignment where and off duty detective needed immediate backup (code 1). I was hit by the camera and had to stay late and write a statement as to why I passed a red light... a @#$% red light! You learn the ART of writing your way out of corners where they try to screw you.


In reference to shooting someone in the back... fact of the matter is, you can.

If you believe that that person committed a violent crime or will commit a violent crime, and the only way to stop that is to shoot him in the back, so be it....

remember, we are LEO, it's not only about an immediate threat to us... we can use force to protect others and prevent crimes... a little different than the CCW statutes.

I hope this helps a bit. I don't want you to think I'm out out here pointed my piece at everyone. i took this job to serve the people who make this country what it is.

Best, -Coop
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top