LEO- disarming question

Disarming

You did good! So one got away, sooner or later his time will come up. You don't have to go before some Grand Jury for doing what some of us would have liked to have done, you are not relieved of duty pending anything, and you don't have to sit in Court in danger because some ambulance chasing lawyer has umpteen liars to testify against you that weren't even there! PPP...Proper Police Proceedure.

Laugh and remember we old time Leos couldn't make it today, we'd likely be incarcerated because we'd have killed a bunch of these SOBs.
 
Good Job!

1. Neither you nor your partner got hurt.
2. You removed some weapons and drugs from the streets.
3. You learn from your mistakes and will be better prepared next time.

I have a lot of respect for you as you COULD have shot the kid and filed some phoney report. That shows that you are NOT from Miami!!! :eek: You respect the law that you have sworn to uphold and value life, even low lifes. :( :barf: Thank you for making the streets a little safer and stay safe!


I'm not sure about the legality but I would have tasered the subject. This is less than lethal force and may have resulted in an arrest. I'm sure he would be out on the streets again soon but one less POS on the streets for a little while. Hind sight is 20/20 but I would have drove past them and then radioed for back up. You already know they were armed and it could have gone down VERY badly had they been brazen enough to fight. 3 to 2 odds is not great, even if you are a great shot.

I'm not sure I have the same restraint as you. These gang bangers and pushers are scum and a menace to society. Thank you again for respecting the law and doing the right thing. I wish there were more cops out there like you.
 
Armed perp, well darn, down here in Miami, ya just shoot 'em. No wonder DC is so screwed up. Female partner too? Yeah, we got those here as well.
 
Mannlincher ain't kidding either. As a fellow Miamian, I can vouch for his comments. I'm staying away from the female partner comment though. I'm not about to piss off the heavily armed ladies we have on this forum! :eek: :D :p
 
Nobody likes to see a suspect get away. But, those three guys were a drop in the bucket in the scheme of things. Priority one is your safety and the safety of your partner.
Click to expand...
I know what you’re getting at here and I understand it, but I really disagree with this statement and entire concept. Its been said by several posters so I’m not “picking” on you. Priority one for anybody in law enforcement is being an effective buffer between the bad guys and the good guys, going home at the end of the shift is a main goal, but accomplishing the mission (getting an established “badguy” off the streets) is goal number one. For that reason, I’m not about to criticize Coop’s chase of the guy into the apartment. Sure its not the safest thing to do from a personal safety standpoint, but it was the most probable one that would result in an arrest. For my money, that’s exactly what he should have done.


Coop,

I wasn’t there so anything I could suggest as far as “what you should do” is little more than armchair quarterbacking. That said, I’ll second the recommendation to approach the call in a way that allows you to gather as much information as you can before approaching the subjects. Not every call could be handled that way, and this one might not have been one you could, but when you can I’d recommend you do so. As regards how you could have “made” the subject comply, I’d say the only option you had was some level of force. If you didn’t/don’t have a less than lethal weapon you could use at a distance (I’d agree OC might have caused more problems than it solved), the only thing left is going hands on. You were in DC and you saw the gun, which you say is a felony. Taking the guy down hard with two other people involved isn’t the necessarily the most tactically sound move, but this job sometimes requires you use less than perfect tactics. Generally speaking, my view is that a person (no matter how many are present) should get one go around of commands, if he doesn’t comply you have to make him.* From the way you described this situation, I’d say the best thing you could have done when he didn’t comply is take him down.




*Standard caveat of “every situation is different” applies. There can be a jillion reasons that make you decide to continue using voice commands. I’m using generalities here.
 
"I know what you’re getting at here and I understand it, but I really disagree with this statement and entire concept."

"Priority one for anybody in law enforcement is being an effective buffer between the bad guys and the good guys, going home at the end of the shift is a main goal, but accomplishing the mission (getting an established “badguy” off the streets) is goal number one."

Law enforcement is a dangerous job. At times you will have to put your life on the line. But, there is a difference between being courageous and taking stupid risks. An officer does nobody any good if he goes out, throws caution to the wind and runs headlong into dangerous situations just to boost his arrest stats. No cop enjoys loosing a suspect in a foot chase. If you place making an arrest as a priority over working safely, you are probably going to have a nice write-up on the departments memorial board before long. I would rather have an officer that consistantly makes good arrests and uses good tactics over a cowboy who routinely throws caution to the wind to get the suspect at all costs. It wouldn't be too hard to go out and get yourself killed in a couple of years if you were intent on being stupid, but you could use good common sense and sound tactics and make hundreds and hundreds of quality arrests over the span of a long career. To be an effective buffer between the public and criminals you have to live long enough to make a difference. So, officer safety is number one and getting the bad guy comes in a close second. Thats just the way it is. After all, it's just a job. I have gotten hurt a few times and who knows I may get killed one day. But, it won't be because I was living in a fantasy world thinking I am some kind of super hero here to save the world. I'll do what I can, with what I have to work with. The reality of it is; you just can't win every battle. I will never like it, but I have accepted it.
 
ahenry

Priority one for anybody in law enforcement is being an effective buffer between the bad guys and the good guys, going home at the end of the shift is a main goal, but accomplishing the mission (getting an established “badguy” off the streets) is goal number one. For that reason, I’m not about to criticize Coop’s chase of the guy into the apartment. Sure its not the safest thing to do from a personal safety standpoint, but it was the most probable one that would result in an arrest. For my money, that’s exactly what he should have done.
Click to expand...
Boy, does that sound familiar. Sounds exactly like me 20 some years ago. Then I learned. It sounds like you're fairly new to the badge (understand, that's not a put down, only an observation). I was full of piss and vinegar too back then. I had to learn the hard way that A. Bad guys do get away on occasion, and B. You're going to screw up too, multiple times, before you see a pension. Cops are not supermen, We're human and we make mistakes. Even if we don't make mistakes, there are BG's that are faster than us, know the neighborhood better than us, are sneakier than us, and the list goes on. The important thing is that you pick yourself back up, dust yourself off, and go on... just a little smarter the next time. There's always tomorrow, and every BG screws up more than once. You just need to learn to be there when he does. I agree that our primary goal, other than public safety and going home at the end of shift, is to put the BG's in the slammer, but you have to look at the whole picture, over 25 or 30 yrs., and not individual failures. If you don't, you'll be a candidate for either demon rum, or a self inflicted death, especially when you come to realize that you're one of the few that cares, and that the prosecutor, the judge, and the general public, don't. Did Coop do the right thing? Who knows? I wasn't there. Even if I had been there, there's no absolute answer because had he acted differently, we don't know for sure what the outcome would have been. The BG might still have gotten away, or far worse yet, Coop might have been killed. I do know that you can't make a career of second guessing yourself. Learn, mature, and always, always, ALWAYS try to do the Right Thing. I don't care what the general public or armchair warriors think, I am paid to take chances; I am not paid to die. EVERY call, every situation is different. Even if it involves the same people, at the same location, only a few minutes later, it is still fluid, dynamic, ever changing, and judgements have to be made, every day, every second, in a split second. There are no guarentees. Right, wrong, or indifferent, I can say that I would have done the same as Coop.
 
Option?

LD, Others,

In the situation where the subject is responding to directions,
rather than remove the gun from the belt and "bring it into play," why not secure the subject in handcuffs first (if the weapon is somewhere other than the small of the back)? Keep positive control with both hands and not worry about pulling the gun out, handing it off or stowing it somehwhere with the subject in a moderately controlled situation at best.

Thoughts?
 
Good point, Rob. First priority is remove the threat. The obvious threat is the gun, right? Nope. Just like the bumper snickers say, "guns don't kill people, people do". It's his hands that can go for the gun, or your throat or balls. Restrain those first! That's why I like to put 'em on the ground, arms out with palms up and legs crossed. Regardless of where the gun is, tucked front or back, shoulder holster, etc., you need to put him in a position that will make it difficult for him to reach it during your approach. Cuffing is the most dangerous moment. Get 'em on quickly and forget the double-lock and whether or not the key holes are up for now, and then secure the weapon and check for others. Then, you can worry about adjusting the cuffs, double-locking, and getting him up. One of the biggest mistakes I've seen is a lack of very clear, loud, step by step commands to the BG. Every step, every movement MUST be controlled by you. It gets even worse when there's several cops on scene, with each shouting conflicting commands, and that happens frequently in the heat of the moment. That can panic the BG, and panicky people do stupid things. In any case, you can only suggest general procedures. Every scenario is different, and you absolutely HAVE to be able to adjust, adapt, improvise, and most importantly, overcome.
 
I guess I'm also a little pissed the guy just didn't do what I told him to.

I have a badge you know :)
Click to expand...
Well, you've got the most important issue covered: a sense of humor to keep from taking yourself too seriously. :)

I'm unhappy with the hands on head interlocked method. I was taught it in academy, as well, but it's just not as effective as they thought back when. The thing is, if your perp decides to pull his hands down, he's using some of the strongest muscles in his body to do so. Try it with a partner, and REALLY TRY to get your hands down-- you'll be able to most of the time.

If you can't see a weapon, I like having them holding their hands behind their back, palms out with the back of the hands against each other, and then having them lace their fingers together. When you grip his hands in this configuration, you've got him firmly in control. If he begins to get squirrelly when he realizes that you're about to cuff him, raise the hands and push your weight forward a step. This pitches his head forward and puts him utterly off-balance. Some really don't like this because it puts the hands near the waist, where weapons could be. Agreed, but there are weapons at the neck and hair, on many occasions, too. A better likelyhood of control trumps the "weapons at the waist" argument.

All of which utterly circumvents your problem, Coop. ( :D ) First, let me express my pride in our Members for not all playing Mondy Morning Quarterback on your situation-- I hate that.

Next, was he immediately aware that you knew of his pistol? What if you had played it cool and told him to sit down while you sorted this out? I'm not telling you that this would have worked, I'm just asking if it was feasible for the situation. I understand that drawing down makes us feel a little better when it's a real live bad guy and we don't know what he's going to do, but if he believes he might talk his way out of it and you don't know the score, he might play along long enough to get himself snared. "Why don't you have a seat while I sort this out?" (gesture to a spot NOT against a wall or car, but near a wall is good. On a curb is not as good. We're putting him at a disadvantage to run, and perhaps even getting him leaning back on his hands.)
 
Boy, does that sound familiar. Sounds exactly like me 20 some years ago. Then I learned. It sounds like you're fairly new to the badge (understand, that's not a put down, only an observation). I was full of piss and vinegar too back then.
Click to expand...
I don’t have just a ton of time in, certainly not 20 years like yourself, but I’m no “noobie” to the job. People in law enforcement get jaded; it’s almost a necessity in order to deal with everything. Nevertheless, despite the realization that you can’t catch everybody and half or more of the people out there don’t like what you’re doing, it is your function to do everything possible to be that buffer I mentioned earlier. Call it piss and vinegar if you like, but I make a concerted effort to maintain that attitude. It hasn’t left me yet and I will do everything I can to ensure it doesn’t leave me at some point in the future.

The reality of it is; you just can't win every battle. I will never like it, but I have accepted it.
Click to expand...
and
Even if we don't make mistakes, there are BG's that are faster than us, know the neighborhood better than us, are sneakier than us, and the list goes on. The important thing is that you pick yourself back up, dust yourself off, and go on... just a little smarter the next time.
Click to expand...
I would wager I know about people getting away better than most; it is part and parcel of what I do. That doesn’t change the fact that each and every time I am faced with some kind of situation requiring action, I do what I have to do, regardless of the personal risks I might face.* If I ever decide that I can’t or won’t do that anymore, then it will be time to find another job. Despite that, I know full well that people have gotten away from me, and they will get away from me in the future. That fact has zero bearing on how I should handle the specific situation I find myself in. I learned a long time ago that if I do anything less than my dead level best and give any less than everything I have, the second guessing that follows a missed collar is far harder to deal with than the second guessing that comes from making a wrong decision.

* I know you guys do the same. I’m not trying to imply you don’t.
 
Ahenry- It's the same as my pursuit/code 3 driving policy. If I wreck out due to my cavalier driving, I didn't do anybody any good. I have to finish the course in order to do anybody any good.

In the same way, when pursuing on foot, I have to keep my pursuit as tactically sound as possible. It increases the chance that my suspect will get away, but it also ensures that I make it back to squad meeting the next day sans injury, ready to confront evil yet again. :D

As for Coup De Ville- I think you did pretty good! I have learned that I am too familiar with seeing guns, and I don't vocalize it fast enough to my cover officers. "GUN!" is the appropriate response to seeing a firearm in the field. It only takes a second, and gets everybody up to speed. It is the WAY you say it and your actions that follow that communicate to the others what they need to do.

I assume the two suspects who didn't run were arrested. I hope she didn't continue to interview them as you pursued the third.

I don't like the idea of chasing a suspect who is holding a handgun. I'd do it, but I wouldn't like it. My ASP might accidentally fly out of my hand while running and hit him... :D
 
Last edited:
I understand the concept (as I said earlier), I just don’t agree with it. You know I’ve said for years that every action has a consequence, but you also know my other long held mantra, “future consequences don’t dictate current actions”. I know on the surface those views seem diametrically opposed, but you should know what I’m getting at. Just because a possible action might have future negative consequences to our personal safety, those consequences have no bearing on what I should do in that given situation. In other words, do what is right regardless of personal costs. I will freely admit that we aren’t really taking about a right vs. wrong here, but the concept holds.
 
I don't like the idea of chasing a suspect who is holding a handgun. I'd do it, but I wouldn't like it. My ASP might accidentally fly out of my hand while running and hit him...
Click to expand...
Just F.Y.I, that is a good idea but I can speak factually here, it doesn’t work. ;)
 
Too bad nobody makes a Taser that's the size of a Streamlight M3, and attaches to the accessory rail on my Glock! I'd gladly trade my light for a Taser (I can always hand-hold my light.)

Ahenry- I'll take this conversation off-line, as its not germaine to the original thread.
 
Qualified in shotgun, but we are not allowed to carry them on the street. I have an asp and oc spray... Tasers are way out. I doubt our Dept. will ever use them....

Best -Coop
 
Coop

Can't carry a shotgun?? :eek: Tasers are out?? Man, it sounds like you've got another one of those chiefs that have degrees in accounting or administration, but never put a day on the streets in their lives! :mad: :barf: There seems to be an alarming trend in this direction, especially on large depts. Thank God all our brass, including the chief, are mustangers. :cool:
 
Hang in there

Coop, your dept. will come around eventually. It may take a few lawsuits or significant hikes in liability insurance and/or workers comp claims. Find out who insures your dept and drop a dime to them. Our municipal association not only recommended the tasers, but wrote us a $1500 check to boot.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top