LEO- disarming question

C

Coop de Ville

New member
Got a call yesterday for suspicious males loading weapons into a vehicle. Responded (had a partner yesterday.. usually alone). Vehicle matched with tag and there were 3 young males leaning against the car. Trunk popped. Exited and approached one. As I got within 5-10 feet I saw he had a handgun tucked in hi waist (This is in DC.. no handguns period.. and these were known drug boys).

I drew and ordered him to drop the paper cup in his hand and place his hands behind his head. My reaction was to secure his weapon, at least get a grip on it, and keep my gun hand tucked and ready. Before I could alert my partner (she was interviewing the other two) the kid bolted and I took chase. Around the building and into the next apartment building. I was maybe 15 feet behind him and he had the gun in his hand so he wouldn't drop it. I don't know why they don't get holsters.

He enters the biolding and I follow, but there are too many corners and he disappears behind one. I back off and await other units. He's gone.

Trunk of the vehicle contains illegal weapon and ammo and a bunch of crack. I took it all including the vehicle. Will get a warrant "John Doe" since I can ID him.

So, question.... something we didn't learn in the academy.

You're drawn on a suspect with gun... how to disarm? All the perps we contact run, and I'm not gonna shoot someone in the back unless warranted. He made no threatening gestures towards myself or any other. Of course I could have written whatever I wanted....

Any thoughts?

Coop
 
Assuming that the suspect is under arrest.

Suspect on his knees facing 12 o'clock, fingers interlaced behind his head, ankles crossed.

Your partner covering the suspect from the 4 or 5 o'clock position.

You approach from 7 or 8 o'clock, get a good handful of fingers with your right hand, place your right foot between the suspects ankles. Remove the weapon of the suspect with your left hand, staying on the left of the suspect.

Secure the weapon in your belt, then 'cuff suspect normally.

If your suspect gets froggy, the grip on two or three of his fingers will keep his hands locked together, together with your foot keeping his ankles crossed should enable you to retain control.

Should you begin to lose control, rock forward using your knee to shove hard on his back as you push hard with your right hand, and jump back.

This gets you clear of the line of fire, and gives you time to transition to OC, baton, Taser, or your sidearm.

LawDog
 
I hate it when that happens.

If you have a suspect whom you are trying to arrest, said suspect has a pistol in his belt, and said suspect isn't following commands...

Call your supervisor. Unless your suspect draws the pistol, in which case you've got bigger problems than a disarm.

Oh, and cover is mandatory in this kind of a situation.

Failing the appearance of your supervisor, what's your department SOP on use of tasers?

LawDog
 
The whole thing went down in 10 seconds. I didn't even have time to alert my partner, who didn't see it in his waistband. She was facing the other 2 guys.

He just stood there calm as could be... then bolted.
 
Take cover. Give commands. If he doesn't go with the program, Tasers are very handy in these situations. I would personally put him prone and spread eagle. That way it's very awkward to reach under himself to get gun from waistband. Handcuff, then get the gun. Once he runs, story changes a little. BE CAREFUL. Just because he's running away doesn't mean he can't fire at you.
 
I learned the same procedure, LawDog - never came up with anything better as a standard practice.

Sometime badguys get away, that's a fact of life behind the badge. What you could've done better is be a faster runner - and then they're still gonna get away even if you were the faster runner in the world! Besides, there are issues with chasing someone on foot with drawn guns... I've had a few out foot me too - sigh. It sucks. Get over it and try for better position next time, work out a little more, hope for luck to be on your side..... And remember the guy's face - more than likely he'll turn up again and you'll get a second "shot" at him. ;)
 
COOP:

It sounds like you did the best you could under the circumstances. Our dept. seems to handle things a little differently, but I live in a large city, so if we have 3 potential armed suspects there is gonna be at least a minimum of 3 patrol cars arriving on the scene. We try and have at least twice as many good guys as bad, superiority in numbers. You knew who the guy was, so you can get the warrant, he'll be caught eventually, they always are.. ;) Not sure how comfortable I would have been leaving my partner, by him/herself, with two other potentially armed suspects, but with just two people on scene your options were fairly limited. You get there, suspects bolts, not a lot of options here, but to get on comms and try and get backup, if I'm reading the scenario properly. Glad everyone is safe.
 
I like 'em face down on the ground, legs crossed, palms up. Only thing I don't like about the spread eagle position is that when I approach, he can still use his legs. I don't think there is any one, universally accepted solution though. Not responding to commands? This is a perfect scenario for the Taser, and damn, I'm SOLD on Tasers! I've used it twice and it dropped both guys like an old oak tree :D . Yup. Some do get away to play another day. Considering that we're wearing a vest, steel toed boots, gun belt, one too many donuts, and the anchor from the Titanic, and they're wearing nothing but a pair of stolen Nike's, I'm surprised more don't get away. We have one guy that's affectionately nick named "Pit Bull". He is the absolute master of the foot pursuit, and he got the name because he simply refuses to give up (uh, except for the time he ran over a 12' wall he didn't see :rolleyes: ) But even he's lost a couple. We don't mention those around him. :eek:
 
I love Tasers as well. But this situation brings up an interesting point. If I walk up on a subject and see a gun in his waistband, their loading weapons in a vehicle, and are known as drug dealers(gang bangers??), am I going to feel comfortable going up to him with a taser in my hand? Personally, again this is personal judgement, but I would be on the radio first thing, with weapon drawn, and loud verbal commands (Partner covers after subject(s) assumes position spread eagle position on ground, and I go into cuff...if they are compliant) . If he bolts, he bolts. But I am not sure I would go up to him with a taser, in my weapon hand, if he has a pistol in his belt. What if said suspect draws weapon instead of running (which he appears to do in this situation, while running), and I have taser in my weapon hand... :eek: Having said that, I am big proponent of the taser, and we have them in our dept. Just some food for thought here. I think I would handle this more based on the totality of the circumstances of the call. Couple of felonies going on here, I think I'd have my weapon in hand. Now another scenario, different circumstances/subject/etc taser would be the way to go IMHO. My take on the situation described, and I may be wrong on my interpretation here, is that basically Coop approaches the subject, before he can even warn his partner, guy bolts. (How many time has this happened to all of us..)I am wondering if Coop had enough time to even deploy his taser?? Not sure, just glad everyone got out safe. Let us know when guy gets caught... :D
 
Taser just needs to make a model that attaches to those nifty little accessory rails on many current service pistols.
 
You make a VERY good point Sarge! In fact, when we first got Tasers, our training officer had to deal with this very issue. Our training officer frequently reviews VICS tapes to address real mistakes made in the field. They are POSITIVELY ABSOLUTELY NOT used to ridicule an officer that made a mistake, but they are used to make us all just a little bit better. Anyhow, several reviews showed an alarming trend of officers relying too much on the Taser, making their gun hand occupied. Result was training in holstering their pistol and snap shooting with the Taser. We now also try to have one officer cover with a firearm while another deploys the Taser. My post didn't reflect that. My mistake. Time for another VICS review and training on posting on forums :D .
 
Perhaps I should expand on my earlier post. Without a doubt, firearm first if the susp is armed. If you have a partner and the perp just freezes up or doesn't comply, maintain lethal cover and let your partner use the Taser. Personally I carry my X26 so that I can draw it with my weak hand if necessary. I know we're taught not to have two weapons out at the same time, but it saved my rear end during an "active shooter" incident. While I was covering the shooter with my duty .45, his buddy gets in my way and attempts to interfere. I went to the taser with my weak hand and made quick work of him to defuse a very tense situation. I know it's not an "approved" tactic, and I as a Taser Instructor don't really advocate it, but desperate times call for desperate measures and that would be another option
 
Couple of things. I've been thinking about this like crazy.

First off, I could have just popped him 2 in the chest. I was about 5 feet from him and already drawn. I could have written it easy. Only problem... I didn't FEEL threatened.

Call me whatever. I've been training for so long (GUN NUT) that I knew I would beat him, even if I were holstered. I don't know know if this is good or bad... maybe too much IDPA. But it was almost like a drill, not real life.

Second, I'm so used to people carryng guns, PA, VA, NC, etc. that there was zero shock value in seeing a gun in his pants... even though it's a felony in DC.

Third, The kid (18 or 19) just stood there calmly as we arrived. He had a good 15 to 20 seconds after he saw our car to roll out. He didn't. He just stood there with that stupid smirk on his face.

Fourth, thinking back, I could have OC'd him. Worst case is that he draws and fires blindly and or runs blindly. I could have popped him as he drew with that advantage....

Hindsight.... I hope to be more prepared the next time....

Best Coop
 
Coop,

My friend, don't let this one get to you. You and your partner made it back safely, that is a plus in my book. As I have mentioned, I think you handled this well. I agree, based on your last thread, two in the chest was not an option, as there was no immediate threat when you pulled up. Gun is in BG waistband, no immediate threat of loss of life or great bodily injury. You pop two off on this guy and just as sure as the world Uncle Mike with his new cam corder is trying it out and just happens to get the whole thing on tape. Then you are up the big creek with no paddle. OCing him and taking the chance of him blind firing...again, not a chance I would personally take. OC'd BG takes pot-shot and hits partner in face killing her...that'd be a hard pill to swallow, or even worse hits Johnny Jr. riding his bike down the street. You did fine sir...and lived to fight another day. That speaks volumes, everyday is a chance to learn something new, and it looks like you gained some good insight here...hindsight is always 20/20..I think you did the right thing. And as already said, this guy will get caught.
 
Coop,

A couple of quick things. If you are working in the Metro D.C. area, you should try to arrive with backup any time you go on a call involving weapons such as this. And you did. Don't go charging in there to quickly. Get backup and slow down. Park away from the scene a little ways and walk in. Try to observe them before they observe you. One thing you should think about is practicing contact and cover when contacting suspicious suspects. Only one officer conducts business, while the other officer acts as a force presence and watches the suspects. The cover officer is not being distracted by dealing with the suspects, running checks on them, writing their info. down etc. The cover officer gives you an advantage because it becomes clear to the suspects that the cover officer is ready to use force if required. I bring this up because you were attempting to interview the one before you noticed the gun and your partner was attempting to interview the other two. Contact and cover was a concept developed by the San Diego PD after two officers were killed in what is known as the Grape Street Park incident. Check into that, it can save your life and it works. Also, a foot chase alone in an apartment complex when the suspect has a gun in his hand is too risky when you lose sight of him. The gun in his hand could have been to keep it from falling out of his belt, but it is more likely he was looking for a corner to hide into and ambush you. I knew an officer who was killed in exactly that way. Most of the time these guys running away from you will try to throw away the things that will get them into trouble, such as drugs and guns. Nobody likes to see a suspect get away. But, those three guys were a drop in the bucket in the scheme of things. Priority one is your safety and the safety of your partner. In a perfect world you close a perimeter with additional units and call an air unit and K9. But, those resources are not always available. It sounds like you did pretty well and the fact that you were able to go home that day was a victory. If you stay in this business long, this one won't be the last to get away. Check into some of the Caliber Press books. Don't rely on your department to provide you all of your training. Go out a spend some money on training material. It's money well spent.

Take care,
 
Probably shouldn't even ask, but - - -

First off - I am not a police officer, don't play one on TV or here.

IF you had gone in with a shotgun at the start, and he took off as you posted, would you have been justified in firing a buckshot round at his feet to stop his flight from the scene?

Would this have been excessive force under the circumstances? (Felon fleeing the scene of a crime)

I would not want your job under any circumstances, I appreciate beyond written expression the fact that you are doing it, and not me.

I thank you for your service to our country in what I consider to be a hellhole. (DC)
 
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