Legality of purchasing a firearm while on leave?

[dogtown tom]

rickyrick It does specifically break it down on the 4473.

It sure does. Yet you continue to state erroneous information.

Also service members are usually well aware of the relationship of their legal residence and their military service. It's quite different than civilians are working and living abroad.

Again you fail to comprehend that there is absolutely no difference in between military or civilians who do not reside in the United States.

PLEASE reread the ATF Ruling on State of Residence.

If you are a service member, you can conduct business in your home of record including buying firearms, it says so right on the 4473 It's been done for years by millions of people.

Absolutely false. The Form 4473 says no such thing.
No ATF regulation or ruling makes reference to "home state" or "home of record".

I don't need to quote case law to know when I can and cannot turn right on red

Yeah, you do. You and Armed_Chicagoan are letting your understanding of MILITARY policies blind you to Federal law regarding firearms.

Seems like the issue is getting overthought.

Not if you can read and write English.
Sadly, despite posting the actual ATF regulations and rulings there are still two forum members who just don't get it.

 

[Frank Ettin]

Absolutely nothing cited here supports the contention that joining the military means you can't also maintain a residence in your home state for purposes of purchasing a firearm.....

Absolutely nothing you've written here supports the proposition that Arizona is the OP's State of residence for the purposes of the GCA and lawfully acquiring a gun in Arizona. Absolutely nothing you've written here supports the proposition that (see post 2):

If you have an Arizona driver's license and vote in Arizona you are an Arizona resident.

...I'm getting berated for misusing the legal term of "resident", while the OP is assumed to be using it correctly....

The OP knows what his situation is. You do not. You're just guessing.

...No one has shown any legal reasoning whatsoever, whether case law or statute, that a member of the military forfeits his right in "Example 2" of the law to buy a firearm there when he returns there on leave...

No one has provided any real evidence that Example 2 of the definition of "State or Residence" set out in 27 CFR 478.11 describes the OP's situation.

...I have been consistent that...

Being consistent is not the same thing as being correct.

 

[Frank Ettin]

...If you are a service member, you can conduct business in your home of record including buying firearms, it says so right on the 4473...

No, it does not.

The 4473 refers to one's State of residence in two places ; question 2 and question 13.

As Aguila Blanca pointed out, the instructions for question 2 (looking at the April, 2012, revision of ATF Form 4473 (5300.9), reads:

...If the buyer is a member of the Armed Forces on active duty acquiring a firearm in the State where his or her permanent duty station is located, but does not reside at his or her permanent duty station, the buyer must list both his or her permanent duty station address and his or her residence address in response to question 2. If you are a U.S. citizen with two States of residence, you should list your current residence address in response to question 2 (e.g., if you are buying a firearm while staying at your weekend home in State X, you should list your address in State X in response to question 2).

And the instructions for question 13 read:

Question 13. State of Residence: The State in which an individual resides. An individual resides in a State if he or she is present in a State with the intention of making a home in that State. If an individual is a member of the Armed Forces on active duty, his or her State of residence also is the State in which his or her permanent duty station is located.

If you are a U.S. citizen with two States of residence, you should list your current residence address in response to question 2 (e.g., if you are buying a firearm while staying at your weekend home in State X, you should list your address in State X in response to question 2.)

Neither of those instructions on the 4473 say anything at all about the "home of record" for a Service Member. Both refer to one's residence and use the definition from 27 CFR 478.11, viz., "An individual resides in a State if he or she is present in a State with the intention of making a home in that State."

A Service Member's home of record is not automatically his State or residence. Every single Service Member when present in the State of his home of record is not automatically there intending to make the State his home.

Whether someone is present in a place intending to make it his home is a question of fact and must be decided based on the actual facts of the particular situation. If one doesn't know all the facts, he can't legitimately opine on the matter.

We're seeing here a symptom of the "I say clip but you know I mean magazine" disease. That sort of casual misuse of a technical terms may be okay for a casual conversation about unimportant matters, but it won't fly when discussing law.

 

[Aguila Blanca]

Again for the inth time....For the purposes of buying a firearm, you are a resident of the state where you actually reside. It doesn't matter if it's your parents home a rented apartment or a tent pitched in your Cousin Bob's back yard.........but you must actually RESIDE THERE! Members of the Armed Forces on active duty may also use the state where their active duty station is located.

Not a correction, Tom, but a clarification: I believe the BATFE guidance regarding vacation residences is clear that, in discussing and referring tio vacation homes, their intent and interpretation is that you must OWN the vacation home. If you go to Naples, FL, and spend a week or two weeks there every year in a time share, I don't think that qualifies you to be a "resident" of Florida for that week or two weeks for the purpose of buying guns. Same if you rent a cottage on Martha's Vineyard for two weeks every August.

On the other hand, if you own a house in Naples, Florida, or a cottage on Martha's Vineyard, then you can claim to be a resident of FL or MA for the periods when you are actually living there, in your house.

 

[rickyrick]

If the buyer is a member of the Armed Forces on active duty acquiring a firearm in the State where his or her permanent duty station is located, but does not reside at his or her permanent duty station, the buyer must list both his or her permanent duty station address and his or her residence address in response to question 2.

so what is the other address mentioned here? Just made? up thin air? what?

Service members do have a home of record and it defaults to the address at which the person resided at the time of the initial enlistment unless the individual decides to make their residence at another location, but you must officially change it.
Active duty military can conduct business in the state of their residence as if they were physically present in that state, no matter where they are stationed in the world, for good cause as highlighted in the turn this thread has taken. Can you imagine trying to live a life and conduct personal affairs when you've been at five different locations in a year?

So if a person was in the military, went home on leave they could absolutely purchase a firearm and leave it at their home before returning to duty; of course they must honestly fill out the form and have no other reasons to disqualify them from purchase.
It is correct that we don't know all the details, if his home state was not AZ then he couldn't buy a firearm there. If AZ is his home state and he can legally otherwise purchase a firearm, then no problem; no amount of insults to me or others can change that.
The main reason that I prefer this forum is because the staff pretty much kept the insults in check. I've even gotten some infractions over the years. But now it seems that staff is joining in, so SWAT magazine can say goodbye to my money and any future money. Hopefully I can comprehend enough to get myself off of the sponsor's mailing lists as well.
see you around.

 

[dogtown tom]

Aguila Blanca

Quote:
Originally Posted by dogtown tom
Again for the inth time....For the purposes of buying a firearm, you are a resident of the state where you actually reside. It doesn't matter if it's your parents home a rented apartment or a tent pitched in your Cousin Bob's back yard.........but you must actually RESIDE THERE! Members of the Armed Forces on active duty may also use the state where their active duty station is located.

Not a correction, Tom, but a clarification: I believe the BATFE guidance regarding vacation residences is clear that, in discussing and referring tio vacation homes, their intent and interpretation is that you must OWN the vacation home. If you go to Naples, FL, and spend a week or two weeks there every year in a time share, I don't think that qualifies you to be a "resident" of Florida for that week or two weeks for the purpose of buying guns. Same if you rent a cottage on Martha's Vineyard for two weeks every August.

On the other hand, if you own a house in Naples, Florida, or a cottage on Martha's Vineyard, then you can claim to be a resident of FL or MA for the periods when you are actually living there, in your house.

I wasn't referring to vacation homes or vacation residences.
ATF clearly states in their State of Residence Ruling that ownership is not required as well as saying vacations and short term stays do not establish residency in a particular state. See the bolded text below.

A person’s “State of residence” is defined by regulation in 27 CFR 478.11 as “the State in which an individual resides. An individual resides in a State if he or she is present in a
- 2 -
State with the intention of making a home in that State.” Ownership of a home or land within a given State is not sufficient, by itself, to establish a State of residence. However, ownership of a home or land within a particular State is not required to establish presence and intent to make a home in that State. Furthermore, temporary travel, such as short-term stays, vacations, or other transient acts in a State are not sufficient to establish a State of residence because the individual demonstrates no intention of making a home in that State.

 

[Frank Ettin]

If the buyer is a member of the Armed Forces on active duty acquiring a firearm in the State where his or her permanent duty station is located, but does not reside at his or her permanent duty station, the buyer must list both his or her permanent duty station address and his or her residence address in response to question 2.

so what is the other address mentioned here? Just made? up thin air? what?...

It's where that person is actually living if he intends to make it his home.

...Service members do have a home of record and it defaults to the address at which the person resided at the time of the initial enlistment unless the individual decides to make their residence at another location, but you must officially change it....

But that is not the same as "State of residence" as defined at 27 CFR 478.11 for the purposes of the GCA. Read and understand the words.

...Active duty military can conduct business in the state of their residence as if they were physically present in that state, no matter where they are stationed in the world,...

Cite the law. And apparently that does not include buying guns in accordance with the GCA.

..So if a person was in the military, went home on leave they could absolutely purchase a firearm and leave it at their home before returning to duty;...

Only if it's his State of residence as defined at 27 CFR 478.11 for the purposes of the GCA.

....The main reason that I prefer this forum is because the staff pretty much kept the insults in check. I've even gotten some infractions over the years. But now it seems that staff is joining in, so SWAT magazine can say goodbye to my money and any future money....

It's too bad that you can't accept that you're wrong here.

But the reality is the "home of record" is not the same thing as State or residence.

But let's see what the Army Staff Judge Advocate has to say (bolded text in original, underlined emphasis added):

..."Home of record" is almost always the state where you first joined the military. Home of record (HOR) is an accounting term used by the military to determine a number of military benefits, such as travel allowances back to your state when you leave active duty. A Soldier's HOR is usually the same as the Soldier's SLR, but that's merely a coincidence, since most people just happen to join the military in the state that is also their SLR. Except in the military, HOR is usually a meaningless term. Military spouses do not have a HOR. You may only change your HOR to correct an error or if you leave the military and then rejoin....

 

[dogtown tom]

rickyrick

Quote:
If the buyer is a member of the Armed Forces on active duty acquiring a firearm in the State where his or her permanent duty station is located, but does not reside at his or her permanent duty station, the buyer must list both his or her permanent duty station address and his or her residence address in response to question 2.

so what is the other address mentioned here? Just made? up thin air? what?

An example would be if a service member was stationed at Sheppard AFB in Wichita Falls, TX but actually resides across the Red River in Oklahoma.
When answering question 2 on the 4473 he would list both addresses as his "current residence address". On question 13 "State of Residence" he could list both TX & OK.

It doesn't matter one bit what the military considers as his home state, home of record or where he pays taxes or votes.

Service members do have a home of record and it defaults to the address at which the person resided at the time of the initial enlistment unless the individual decides to make their residence at another location, but you must officially change it.

AGAIN, AGAIN, AGAIN..........it does not matter what the military thinks is the buyers home state. It has absolutely nothing to do with Current Residence Address or State of Residence.

Active duty military can conduct business in the state of their residence as if they were physically present in that state.....

That's not the argument fella........it's about the ability to acquire a firearm.

...Can you imagine trying to live a life and conduct personal affairs when you've been at five different locations in a year?

Irrelevant.

So if a person was in the military, went home on leave they could absolutely purchase a firearm and leave it at their home before returning to duty; of course they must honestly fill out the form and have no other reasons to disqualify them from purchase.

Only of the buyer accurately listed his CURRENT residence address and state of residence.

It is correct that we don't know all the details, if his home state was not AZ then he couldn't buy a firearm there. If AZ is his home state and he can legally otherwise purchase a firearm, then no problem; no amount of insults to me or others can change that.

Again, you use the term "home state".......STOP THAT. If you feel insulted it's because you continue to use an illogical argument.

"Home state" is not recognized by ATF or Federal law for the purposes of acquiring firearms.

The main reason that I prefer this forum is because the staff pretty much kept the insults in check. I've even gotten some infractions over the years. But now it seems that staff is joining in, so SWAT magazine can say goodbye to my money and any future money. Hopefully I can comprehend enough to get myself off of the sponsor's mailing lists as well.
see you around.

Well, bye.

 

[Aguila Blanca]

If the buyer is a member of the Armed Forces on active duty acquiring a firearm in the State where his or her permanent duty station is located, but does not reside at his or her permanent duty station, the buyer must list both his or her permanent duty station address and his or her residence address in response to question 2.

so what is the other address mentioned here? Just made? up thin air? what?

The other address is the address where the service member lives.

When I was in the Army. I spent the better part of a year stationed at Edgewood Arsenal, Maryland. That was my permanent duty station. I was single at the time, so I lived on the post, in a barracks. Had I been married, I might well have lived off the post in an apartment in Bel Air, Maryland. In such a situation, then, my residence address would have been Bel Air, MD, and my permanent duty station would have been Edgewood Arsenal, MD.

Read the section you cited carefully. What does it say? It says nothing about a situation involving a service member who lives at his permanent duty station (or at an address outside of CONUS nearby his permanent duty station) and who has a home of record at which he/she does NOT live. That's what you're claiming. What the instruction says is, "the buyer must list both his or her permanent duty station address and his or her residence address."

His "residence address" is the address where he lives. Why is that so difficult to comprehend?

 

[ATN082268]

One again, stories about what you or someone you know might have done are useless in answer to a question about whether or not something is legal. When discussing legal issues one needs to look at the law -- not anecdotes.

You're absolutely right. The point of my post was to show there might be additional Military legal issues beyond regular Civilian legal issues. I don't know all the details of the OP's situation, so I thought it best for him to ask his chain of command.

 

[Kimio]

I've gone ahead and added some information to my original post to help give some clarity to my current situation.

 

[Frank Ettin]

It looks like the OP has his answer.