Legality of purchasing a firearm while on leave?

[Aguila Blanca]

The easy answer is to visit your JAG office and get tier opinion. They have access to your DD214 and you can show what identification you have.

What DD-214? Kimio is apparently still on active duty. The DD-214 is a document issued upon separation from active duty. He shouldn't have a DD-214 at this point, unless I'm missing something.

http://www.dd214.com/dd214_faq#what

What is the DD214?

The DD Form 214 is an official document issued by the Army, Air Force, Navy and Marines at the time of discharge or separation from military service. The DD214 shows your status as a separated or retired military member and the nature of your service including dates, awards and decorations and other important details.

 

[rickyrick]

I must be always buying firearms wrong. Whenever I buy a firearm: I go look at the gun, make a decision, tell the clerk I want it, clerk gives me form to fill out, I return form to clerk, clerk asks for ID, clerk asks if the address on the ID is correct, I confirm, clerk scribbles stuff on the paper, clerk says wait 15 min for the background check to complete, I browse the store or go grab lunch, I find the clerk after a reasonable amount of time, clerk finalizes the sale and usually has me verify the ser#, I pay, then most places walk me to the door hands me a firearm.


The only mention of the military on 4473 is if the person is buying where stationed, but not his permanent residence, then the buyer must list both addresses. It does not say that you cannot buy a firearm in your home state if you are in your home state. It even states that if you are buying the firearm at a weekend residence then you list the weekend address.
I'm sorry but the OP should have a stateside residence for legal purposes even if stationed overseas. None of my overseas duty stations were considered a residence.

 

[dogtown tom]

coltsnaurora The easy answer is to visit your JAG office and get tier opinion. They have access to your DD214 and you can show what identification you have.

Worst advice possible.
ATF regulations are clear and posted above.
What identification the OP has is inconsequential to answering questions 2 and 13 on the Form 4473 truthfully.

 

[Frank Ettin]

I must be always buying firearms wrong....

You quite possibly have been.

But here's how the world works. If the question is about whether something is legal or how to do something legally, the answer is not a story about how you've done things.

If the question is about whether something is legal or how to do something legally, the only sort of answer worth anything requires properly citing the applicable statutes, regulations, case law.

The fact that you might have been doing illegal things all your life but haven't been caught [yet] doesn't make what you've been doing legal.

 

[dogtown tom]

rickyrick I must be always buying firearms wrong. Whenever I buy a firearm: I go look at the gun, make a decision, tell the clerk I want it, clerk gives me form to fill out, I return form to clerk, clerk asks for ID, clerk asks if the address on the ID is correct, I confirm, clerk scribbles stuff on the paper, clerk says wait 15 min for the background check to complete, I browse the store or go grab lunch, I find the clerk after a reasonable amount of time, clerk finalizes the sale and usually has me verify the ser#, I pay, then most places walk me to the door hands me a firearm.

What makes you think that's wrong?
As long as you answer the questions correctly and truthfully you have not violated any law.
And it has absolutely nothing to do with the OP's question.

The only mention of the military on 4473 is if the person is buying where stationed, but not his permanent residence, then the buyer must list both addresses.

Wrong. Read it again.

It does not say that you cannot buy a firearm in your home state if you are in your home state.

Good grief have you not read anything in this thread?
For the purposes of acquiring a firearm under Federal law there is NO SUCH THING as a "home state"......and never has been.

It even states that if you are buying the firearm at a weekend residence then you list the weekend address.

Again, not the OP's situation is it?

I'm sorry but the OP should have a stateside residence for legal purposes even if stationed overseas. None of my overseas duty stations were considered a residence.

ATF disagrees and so did Congress in 1968.

 

[raimius]

Asking a competent lawyer would be wise.
I am not one, but here is an idea to investigate...
If your DL/taxes go through your parent's address, you still keep some of your belongings there, and return there when not where the military orders you to be...that may (or may not) be enough to establish residency for the purposes of the GCA...
Thoughts from lawyers?

 

[rickyrick]

If the buyer is a member of the Armed Forces on active duty acquiring a firearm in the State where his or her permanent duty station is located, but does not reside at his or her permanent duty station, the buyer must list both his or her permanent duty station address and his or her residence address in response to question 2. If you are a U.S. citizen with two States of residence, you should list your current residence address in response to question 2 (e.g., if you are buying a firearm while staying at your weekend home in State X, you should list your address in State X in response to question 2).

Doesn't really seem unclear to me

Question 13. State of Residence: The State in which an individual resides. An individual resides in a State if he or she is present in a State with the intention of making a home in that State. If an individual is a member of the Armed Forces on active duty, his or her State of residence also is the State in which his or her permanent duty station is located.

If you are a U.S. citizen with two States of residence, you should list your current residence address in response to question 2 (e.g., if you are buying a firearm while staying at your weekend home in State X, you should list your address in State X in response to question 2.)

 

[Frank Ettin]

...If your DL/taxes go through your parent's address, you still keep some of your belongings there, and return there when not where the military orders you to be...that may (or may not) be enough to establish residency for the purposes of the GCA...
Thoughts from lawyers? ....

Yes, it's about what the facts are. Maybe the facts are such that the OP has a good case that Arizona is is State of residence when he is present there, or maybe the fact don't support that

One reason the OP would want to tell everything to his own lawyer instead of everyone in the world with Internet access is that what he tells his lawyer is private.

 

[Sharkbite]

I would go straight to the horse. Call BATFE and ask em what/how you can do

 

[Frank Ettin]

I would go straight to the horse. Call BATFE and ask em what/how you can do

Sometimes, yes, and sometimes, no.

Just calling up a regulatory agency and asking the question over the phone or by email is generally a waste of time and an unwise way to deal with a significant question if a wrong answer might have serious consequences. An agency will generally not be bound by legal information given over the telephone or by email, and folks answering the phones or email vary tremendously in their knowledge.

Lawyers (including me) often have occasion to seek guidance from a regulatory agency. When we do, we do so in a very formal way, and many agencies have specific procedures which need to be followed to get guidance.

Basically one needs to write a very detailed letter accurately laying out all the facts. It's important that the letter be carefully crafted because the agency's response will be based on those facts. If the facts are actually different in any way, the agency response could be worthless.

 

[ATN082268]

It's been a while since I've been in the Military but I suspect you still have to get approval through your chain of command to buy a firearm. Your leave probably isn't too long, so get the ball rolling well before your leave starts. You may have to keep your gun in the armory if you live on base but you may have some off base options. Ask now.

 

[Sharkbite]

You do NOT have to get permission to buy a gun from you chain of command, if you are buying it on leave and the gun will stay at your home of record when you come off leave.

The ONLY time a chain of command request needs to be made is IF you are bringing the gun on base. Highly unlikely in this case, as the OP is stationed overseas.

 

[Frank Ettin]

One again, stories about what you or someone you know might have done are useless in answer to a question about whether or not something is legal. When discussing legal issues one needs to look at the law -- not anecdotes.

Any such responses will be deleted.

 

[TimSr]

When discussing legal issues one needs to look at the law -- not anecdotes.

I don't think anybody is disputing what the law says. I disagree with your personal dismissal of other people's experiences. I believe anecdotes do play a part in determining how it's been historically interpreted and applied, especially in cases where actual prosecutions are lacking. I don't disagree with you on the law. In this case I disagree with your interpretation of it. Is that forbidden on this forum as well?

Again, a person's best protection is a letter from the agency in authority on such matters.

 

[Frank Ettin]

When discussing legal issues one needs to look at the law -- not anecdotes.

I don't think anybody is disputing what the law says. I disagree with your personal dismissal of other people's experiences. I believe anecdotes do play a part in determining how it's been historically interpreted and applied, especially in cases where actual prosecutions are lacking....

You're free to believe that, but your belief doesn't make it true. A few isolated experiences are hardly evidence of how law has historically been interpreted or applied, especially when the stories relating those experiences are in general terms and undocumented..

If you wish to claim that:

...anecdotes do play a part in determining how it's been historically interpreted and applied,...

provide evidence supporting that contention. If you can't support your claim, I will continue to delete further posts offering nothing but stories.

Some people have done illegal things and not gotten caught. That is not evidence of the historical interpretation or application of the laws they've violated.

 

[Frank Ettin]

....I don't disagree with you on the law. In this case I disagree with your interpretation of it. Is that forbidden on this forum as well?

No, that is not forbidden here. But if you want to disagree with my, or anyone's, interpretation of the law, you need to cite legal authority supporting your interpretation. A story about how someone did something I said was illegal and didn't get prosecuted is not legal authority.

 

[Armed_Chicagoan]

Absolutely nothing cited here supports the contention that joining the military means you can't also maintain a residence in your home state for purposes of purchasing a firearm. The only mention of military in the law is a case where your duty station is in one state and your military residence is in another state, nowhere does it say you are no longer a resident of your home state for purchasing a firearm even if you maintain a residence there.

I'm getting berated for misusing the legal term of "resident", while the OP is assumed to be using it correctly.

No one has shown any legal reasoning whatsoever, whether case law or statute, that a member of the military forfeits his right in "Example 2" of the law to buy a firearm there when he returns there on leave.

I have been consistent that IF he still maintains a residence in his parent's home he is allowed under the GCA to buy a firearm as he is an Arizona resident when he returns there from leave.

Again, I don't know if this is the case (that he still has a residence in his parent's home), but neither does anyone else in this thread. But if he does I don't see any reason why he cannot buy a firearm in AZ when he returns there on leave.

 

[rickyrick]

It does specifically break it down on the 4473.
Also service members are usually well aware of the relationship of their legal residence and their military service. It's quite different than civilians are working and living abroad.

If you are a service member, you can conduct business in your home of record including buying firearms, it says so right on the 4473 It's been done for years by millions of people.
I don't need to quote case law to know when I can and cannot turn right on red

Seems like the issue is getting overthought.

 

[Aguila Blanca]

If you are a service member, you can conduct business in your home of record including buying firearms, it says so right on the 4473 It's been done for years by millions of people.

Here's the link to the 4473: https://www.atf.gov/firearms/docs/4...n-record-over-counter-atf-form-53009/download

Where does it say members of the armed forces can buy firearms using their home of record as their address? The 4473 asks for residence address in question number 2. The instructions for question number 2 say:

Question 2. Current Residence Address: U.S. Postal abbreviations are acceptable. (e.g., St., Rd., Dr., PA, NC, etc.). Address cannot be a post office box. County and Parish are one and the same.

If the buyer is a member of the Armed Forces on active duty acquiring a firearm in the State where his or her permanent duty station is located, but does not reside at his or her permanent duty station, the buyer must list both
his or her permanent duty station address and his or her residence address in response to question 2. If you are a U.S. citizen with two States of residence, you should list your current residence address in response to question 2 (e.g., if you are buying a firearm while staying at your weekend home in State X, you should list your address in State X in response to question 2).

The only mention of members of the armed services in the instructions is for members who are stationed in the U.S. but do not live at the address of the permanent duty station (in other words, the service member lives off post). There's no mention of home of record.

What am I missing?

 

[dogtown tom]

Armed_Chicagoan Absolutely nothing cited here supports the contention that joining the military means you can't also maintain a residence in your home state for purposes of purchasing a firearm.

No one has said any such thing.
1. Read the ATF Ruling on "State of Residence"
2. understand that ATF regulations never refer to "home state".
3. Discover what "Current residence address" means.
4. Stop inventing things that the OP has NEVER said.

The only mention of military in the law is a case where your duty station is in one state and your military residence is in another state,

False. Again you fail to state what is factual. ATF regulations and Federal law NEVER mention the term "military residence".....again you invent something that does not exist.

nowhere does it say you are no longer a resident of your home state for purchasing a firearm even if you maintain a residence there.

ATF regs don't mention the term "home state" because "home state" has no bearing on the purchase or acquisition of a firearm.

Again for the inth time....For the purposes of buying a firearm, you are a resident of the state where you actually reside. It doesn't matter if it's your parents home a rented apartment or a tent pitched in your Cousin Bob's back yard.........but you must actually RESIDE THERE! Members of the Armed Forces on active duty may also use the state where their active duty station is located.

I'm getting berated for misusing the legal term of "resident", while the OP is assumed to be using it correctly.

You have used a number of terms incorrectly as well as inventing facts.

No one has shown any legal reasoning whatsoever, whether case law or statute, that a member of the military forfeits his right in "Example 2" of the law to buy a firearm there when he returns there on leave.

Again wrong.
There is no statute about a member of the military forfeiting anything....but there is a statute that defines what "State of Residence" means....and THAT applies to members of the armed forces equally.
The examples above are straight from ATF. If you want case law to prove your point it's up to YOU to provide it.

I have been consistent that IF he still maintains a residence in his parent's home he is allowed under the GCA to buy a firearm as he is an Arizona resident when he returns there from leave.

Sure, you've been consistent, but the OP said in his first post that he is not a resident of the state where his parents live. Quoting the OP: "..I can't use my parents address, since that would be lying on the form..."

Again, I don't know if this is the case (that he still has a residence in his parent's home), but neither does anyone else in this thread.

Again, you would be wrong.

But if he does I don't see any reason why he cannot buy a firearm in AZ when he returns there on leave.

1. By his own admission, the OP does not reside in AZ.
2. The Form 4473 requires a current residence address, OP does not currently reside in AZ.
3. OP cannot use his permanent duty station address because it is not in the United States.