Lead Time For Custom Work?

That side of the coin IS valid, but on the other side....
I've personally had work done by "underlings" at name-brand shops that would not have left the floor that way if done by the "name" himself.

There's no easy answer.
Once a guy's good enough to get known, he can easily get TOO known.
If he does, the work either gets outa hand on the waiting period backlogs, or he hires helpers.
If he hires helpers, there's a risk of work going out that may not meet the standards that made the "name" into a "name" in the first place.
Denis
 
Well, the "name" owner is responsible for the work done by underlings (unlike the U.S. government where no one is ever responsible for anything), and should make sure all the work that goes out is at least acceptable.

It seems to me that the kind of guy we are talking about has a choice - either hire help or turn away work. If he continues trying to do it all, his own work will suffer and that won't help his "rep" either.

There are side issues. If he is the kind of smith who takes in tons of work he can't do, he will have a lot of valuable guns in his shop, vulnerable to theft, fire, flood, weather damage, etc. And his insurance may not be enough to cover the loss (and gunsmiths are notorious for not carrying enough insurance). And if anything happens to him, does he have good records of the ownership of the guns?

Jim
 
Wasn't defending either side to the exclusion of the other, just saying there's no easy answer.
Denis
 
If some of these Gunsmith's were smart, they would do like a tattoo shop does.

Hire a handfull of talented smith's and have them showcase their work online as well as in the shop, as a tattoo shop would do with their artists. Then let the customer decide which smith they want to leave their gun with to have work done. They could even have customer reviews listed, as well as their credentials as far as training goes. The best smiths, as well as tattoo artists, usually have long wait times to get work done. This way you aren't relying on one single person to get all the work done and you bring in a whole lot more business. Also, instead of just having some random smith put out a finished product with your name on it with the chances that it wont be up to par, this way they have a pretty good idea of what they are getting based on the smith's portfolio of work, all while the head gunsmith can maintain his reputation.
 
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Have you not noticed the number of truly competent smiths has not kept pace with gun ownership?
Not that easy to find 'em, or train 'em.
Denis
 
Have you not noticed the number of truly competent smiths has not kept pace with gun ownership?
Not that easy to find 'em, or train 'em.
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There are gunsmith schools training people to be smith's only for them to go to the gun companies to do remedial work like assembling and minor repairs. Many of these people do not have the money to tool up and start their own shop. If more smith's hired them for their own shops, what I previously said could be accomplished.
 
I've discussed this with my longtime local guy.

Finding truly competent people isn't easy, taking time off from work to train & supervise through the learning curve is an issue, and hiring a body is expensive.

Again- just saying there's no simple answer. :)
Denis
 
Finding truly competent people isn't easy, taking time off from work to train & supervise through the learning curve is an issue, and hiring a body is expensive.
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As true as that is, if every trade followed this line of though we wouldn't have plumbers, mechanics, or electricians. To become a certified plumber or an electrician you have to work with a master plumber or electrician and put in X amount of hours. Why should it be any different for gunsmiths? If you can't handle your own workload, you hire help. If your too cheap and lazy to hire and train help, it's your own fault for having a 4 year backlog.
 
yes it's worth it

Since I am a patient man, if I wanted a certain top professional in their field to work on my precious metal, I would patiently wait.
How long was Heinie's wait-time? Vickers? Others?

Gun-stuff is the ONLY stuff worth that kind of wait, ay?



I mean, those who knows knows. :D
 
Nathan said:
it looks like gunsmithing is not what puts food on his table. It looks like training and maybe something else.....just saying.
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True. Read his blog (and his book), and you'll see Grant's focus has been evolving over the last few years. He's no longer solely a gunsmith.

Joe_Pike said:
I was put on Grant Cunningham's list to have some custom work done four years ago.
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I can tell you you've got at least another year to wait. :cool:
 
Drag,
You can argue whatifs & shouldbes all day long, I'm just mentioning whatares. :)

In my state, I knew of three competent gunsmiths that I trusted, till one died last year.
And none of those was equally good at everything.

There are far more parts swappers than truly capable machinist/gunsmith/builders, and that's despite places like Trinidad turning them out.

My main guy of nearly 30 years won't be around forever.
I visit him at least 20 times a year for minor to major stuff.
When he hangs it up, I'll most likely be outa business myself.

The situation with competent gunsmiths around the nation is not keeping up with growth, and with the continuing trend toward cheaper guns & methods, those who can handle the older stuff are dying off while those entering the field now are not expecting to work on the same kinds of guns, by & large.
Denis
 
One problem I see is that smiths want to do all the work themselves and will not hire help; that maximizes profit on the jobs they do but leaves many jobs undone that they could make money on. A staple of these sites is the newbie who wants to learn gunsmithing but can't go to or can't afford a school, or even has been to a school and can't find a job. Even if a top smith wants to do the "big" jobs himself to maintain his reputation, there must be many jobs an unskilled or semi-skilled worker could do.

OK, rebuilding a Colt DA revolver is a skilled job. But putting on a recoil pad is not, and many general smiths won't hire help to do even the unskilled work. Sure, training a helper/apprentice takes time, but a good man can learn a lot on his own. IMHO there are good people out there who would be happy to work in a top notch shop, even sweeping the floor.
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You smashed that nail right on the head!
When all the very few quality gunsmiths are 6 feet under there will be no one to fill there shoes because they will not take the time to teach and pass there skills down. Thing on the idiot box some 2 weeks ago and the statement was from 4000+ blacksmiths at the turn of the century working here is now down to 60, and when they are gone then what?
Thats most of our problem here is the journeyman are not passing down the knowledge and its going to the grave.

As a side note, I will not wait an hour to eat at a restaurant, I sure as hell won't wait 4+years to get a firearm worked on
 
Well you must understand that as a rule, gunsmiths don't own large shops.
We are not Ruger or Smith and Weason.
I for one have one bench, one set of tools, and I do everything I do in a space of only 230 square feet.
So how would I hire anyone?

What are "they" going to do for me in my shop?

I charge around $75 to do a full smooth and tune on a S&W revolver. It takes me about 2-2.5 hours to do the completer job. So that about $30-36 an hour for skilled labor.

If I pay someone to do it he's got to be as good at the job as I am.

If he is, why in the world would he want to work for me using his own tools?

If he's not I cannot afford to let sub-standard work out the door.

I am well known for my skills on the guns I make.
I made these, and I have skills to do may many other kinds of smithing.







I am well known for my skills on the guns I make.
I made these, and I have skills to do may many other kinds of smithing.




I can and I have made these kind of guns all myself from the barrels to the locks and down to every pin and screw. I also am quite skilled on the "modern" kind of guns too, having made competition grade and military grade handguns and rifles for many years. I am not a man without skills or abilities.
HOWEVER, I have been doing it now for over 40 years.

Can you send me someone that has my skill level to work for me?

Is he able to work for less money than I do? I can't get ahead very well on what I earn a year. My wife and i both work full time so that makes us a living, but we are not rich. I have not been able to save enough money to buy even a small milling machine in the last 15 years.

When my car breaks down it's hard for me to pay for its repairs.

So I am not getting rich here, and if I can't work for much less I doubt someone else can either.

It took me about 25 years to get good enough to be competitive in this field. I can do far better as a manager than I can as a worker, but I dislike managing others and I like working. I think I am good at what I do BECAUSE I like doing it.

Now that I have this level of skills that is what ALL my customers come to me for.
They don't want me to hire anything out. They want ME to work for them. And I do, about 65 to 70 hours every week.

So who can I hire that is as good as I am,
that has the 20-25 years of experience and skills,
that is not already an established gunsmith with a shop of his own,
who is able to work for less than I can and let me hire him,
who has his own tools, and who will build his own shop to work in (mine doesn’t even have room for 2 people to walk around in without crowding each other)
and doesn’t want his own customers?

“Just hire someone”?

Who?
If I find such a man, why would they want to do my work when they can do their own work?

A good smith is the product of time. He's usually not someone that has a huge shop and a lot of extra tools to share with anyone. Gunsmithing pays the bills, but I never met one that was wealthy enough to buy into a bigger operation from his own profits.
 
I went through something like this some 40+ years ago when I got out of HS with a automotive mechanics diploma. Couldn't get hired anywhere, NO EXPERIENCE. I understand where you are coming from.
So who can I hire that is as good as I am,
that has the 20-25 years of experience and skills,
that is not already an established gunsmith with a shop of his own,
who is able to work for less than I can and let me hire him,
who has his own tools, and who will build his own shop to work in (mine doesn’t even have room for 2 people to walk around in without crowding each other)
and doesn’t want his own customers?
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The kid that may have wanted to learn and work 30 years ago, is the one you could have hired.
As I stated, when the old craftsman are 6 under, so goes the knowledge without being passed on.

From your post I have to ask, did you pop out of the womb being a full fledged gunsmith?
How did YOU get started???? Someone take YOU under their wing???
Just curious
 
No, I am about 90% self taught. I never did an apprenticeship.
I was instructed by the curators at the Nevada State Museum when I was in Jr High School and High School. I learned about restoration from those early days, doing projects on weekends and a few months during the summers of 2 years.
I’d guess I have a total of about 100 hours learning from them when I was 12-16 years old.
Harry Johnson (P O Ackley's old shop manager and fellow shop worker) took me under his wing for about 3 months, but then had a heart attack so that was the end of my instruction from him. That was when I was a young man in my late 20s

Monty Manderino also gave me his attention for 4 days in 1995

Other than those few men, I am self taught, reading books and looking at the work of smiths I admired.

I have taught several other young men, but only one stuck with it. As soon as they find out how long good work takes they usually give it up. The only one that stuck with it is running his own shop now in Kansas.
 
I'm thinkin the answer is more simple then made to believe.

The smith should not take on anymore work then he can accomplish in a reasonable time frame. If a customer insists on being put on a list that is already full and the smith knows is more then he can handle, the smith should make the customer fully aware that the job may take much longer to get to then normal as he is booked up.
 
"If a customer insists on being put on a list that is already full and the smith knows is more then he can handle, the smith should make the customer fully aware that the job may take much longer to get to then normal as he is booked up. "

YES EXACTLY!
That's what I have always done. Many men and woman would not wait 7 years and I would even suggest some of my competitors for them to call, however about 1 in 3 would say they wanted one of my guns and they would get in line. As I said, it got to a point that I was behind over 7 years. It makes me feel bad, but I can’t work any faster and still give the quality I am known for.

The economy is now so bad that I am not getting many orders, and these days I am down to 1-2 years.
 
I'm thinkin the answer is more simple then made to believe.

The smith should not take on anymore work then he can accomplish in a reasonable time frame. If a customer insists on being put on a list that is already full and the smith knows is more then he can handle, the smith should make the customer fully aware that the job may take much longer to get to then normal as he is booked up.
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At one time I was over 4 years out on back logged work, I always informed my clients of the status of my backlog.
Here's what I did to change my backlog.

Open division raceguns, quit taking orders and building them 5 years back, I do not offer that service now, still get request for those on a regular basis.

Limited division competition guns I've pretty much quit building them, the only way I'll consider building one is for the client to be able to place the order in person at the shop and pick the gun up at the shop, even then most of those will be turned down.

Single stack 1911 pistols, my favorite. I no longer accept complete builds on any guns that have to be shipped, no matter if I building the custom gun from the frame up or building a custom gun on a client supplied base gun.

However at the present time I have been accepting most but (not all) custom 1911 single stack builds when the client can come to the shop and discuss the build in person and can legally pick their gun up at the shop.

I'm still offering my machining services to the general public doing most types of custom slide modifications including sight cuts, sight installations and my custom front strap scallops.

Along with the above I still do a certain amount of general gun repair on long guns for the local folks even though that was not my intent when I built the shop and hung out my shingle.

I sold my bluing tanks and no longer offer any type of finishing service from the shop.

Guess what, as of to date I'm back to having a year backlog on complete builds.
I firmly believe the only way to not have a backlog is to not renew my FFL and close the business.

Wyosmith did a very good job of explaining the things that takes place when you run a one man shop, I know exactly what he's talking about.
There's a lot of comments from people here that seem to have the answers to a backlog, yet they have never walked one step in Wyosmith's shoes.

As for hiring someone I can guarantee you that if the person is any good it will not be long and they will be out on their own, and I do not blame them at all for that.

If they are not that good most likely their main concern is just a paycheck and I don't have the time to stand over someone to make sure they are producing the quality of work that I expect, after all it's my name that's associated with the work.

I did not open my shop to teach gunsmithing even though I have taught a couple of people.
However I do not have the desire or inclination to be a teacher.
There's several gunsmith colleges around the county that teach all types of machining skills and the knowledge it takes to become a smith, if you have the desire enroll and enjoy.

As for there not being that many smiths anymore or new smiths, I feel most who desire to take up this trade soon learn it's long hours with not such good pay.

Best Regards
Bob Hunter
www.huntercustoms.com
 
shortwave said:
I'm thinkin the answer is more simple then made to believe.

The smith should not take on anymore work then he can accomplish in a reasonable time frame. If a customer insists on being put on a list that is already full and the smith knows is more then he can handle, the smith should make the customer fully aware that the job may take much longer to get to then normal as he is booked up.
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And this is EXACTLY what Grant Cunningham states on his website. His waiting list is a courtesy for those who want his work done. It opens up from time to time, and he lets potential customers know that X number of spots have opened up, and he will take your email address to put you on the list. You don't sign anything, you just simply give him your email and wait until he contacts you from what I understand. I've spoken with Grant before, and he does not take your firearm until he has contacted you to tell you he's reached your place on the list. He also does not take any money up front, like many shops do, to hold your place in line. (C&S I believe requires a $50 dollar deposit, as would many other shops, I imagine.) I could see being ****** if you had paid him money for your spot, or sent him the gun and he's had it for four years, but to be angry at the wait time on a courtesy notification type list?
 
I'm not angry at all. I was just curious what the normal wait time was for having custom work done. I have never had any work done, so, I had no idea what to expect. If my economic situation had not deteriorated to what it is now, I probably would have held onto the Colt and waited it out.
 
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