Knife-wielding suspect vs. 5 armed officers

Another point that should be made here is that I've seen a rash of TFL posters talking about an "acceptable self defense range of 7 yards."

This video should discount that notion pretty clearly.

7 yards is the distance an attacker WITH A CONTACT WEAPON can close by the time most shooters can draw and fire one round.

It's not some magical "ok to shoot" range.
 
Yes, and even if you can loose a number of rounds and make hits within that range, a determined attacker can still do great harm before they expire from blood loss. Training to move off line while shooting makes a lot of sense over standing static. And shooting until the threat is neutralized.
 
That's why a lot of people are advocates of aiming low... if you hit in the pelvis there is a higher likelihood to instantly immobilizes a BG. While it may not be lethal, if their hips are shattered they cannot physically stand and pursue you.

ehh... if only the dude with the AK47 was not being a tool and playing around with a stick. If he actually used the gun as intended this would have never happened. Have gun, do use. Would have saved two good lives in this case....
 
as I read in other forum and it is obvious , they have a lack of training.. and mindset...

But in the other hand, I am no sure about the law in Nicaragua.. for example I think there is other country where if a BG have a knife you can not shoot at him .. you need to use the same "force".. it is stupid.. at least for civilian, no sure about LE...and in other countries you should shoot at the air to scary the person first...

but anyways they need more training and mindset.. sad for them..
 
7 yards is the distance an attacker WITH A CONTACT WEAPON can close by the time most shooters can draw and fire one round.
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During LE training at a vocational school I attended in high school. We would actually run that drill at 21 yards using airsoft guns, cheesy double-retention holsters, and giving the "knife" to the fastest sprinter in the class. Granted it was teenagers, and earlier on in the year that I remember doing this, but not 1 person out of 60 was able to draw their weapon and put a hole in the 18" x 18" piece of cardboard strapped to his chest before he reached them.

I will add though that we had several LE officers that came in routinely to help teach us some specific subject areas. We ran a sergeant through the same drill, using his own holster, and if I remember correctly he got the shot off with about 6 yards to spare.

I will also add that in single retention mode (1 strap), or unstrapped completely, there was a much higher success rate, though I still think less than half of the class was able to accomplish this in single retention mode.
 
sirsloop said:
That's why a lot of people are advocates of aiming low... if you hit in the pelvis there is a higher likelihood to instantly immobilizes a BG
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Not true. If you hit the pelvis there is a lower likelihood of stopping the fight than a hit to the thoracic cavity or the head. There are fewer major blood vessels there and it would be difficult to render someone structurally immobile with gunfire, particularly with handgun caliber bullets. The pelvis is usually touted as an alternative target to the chest because it is easier to hit than the head and often unarmored; but it isn't more likely to immobilize.

See these previous threads for more details:
http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=441459
http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=416452
http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=235485
 
Lol... here we go... venturing a little off topic. I'm certainly no expert, but it seems logical that someone with a shattered pelvis cannot run you down and stab you. Someone with a bullet in the chest could still be physically capable of running you down, especially if they are high on drugs. If you think you can land a headshot or heart shot on a BG while they are charging you with a big blade, go for it.
 
sirsloop said:
Lol... here we go... venturing a little off topic. I'm certainly no expert, but it seems logical that someone with a shattered pelvis cannot run you down and stab you.
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I suspect the reason why we disagree here is that you assign a much higher probability of shattering the pelvis with a firearm than I do. Did you give the links above a read?

It isn't enough to hit the pelvis. In order to severely effect movement, you must break the pelvic circle in two places or hit the neck or upper shaft of the femur. In addition, people can and do continue to fight after having their pelvis shattered. Read this soldier's description of having his pelvis shattered by a rifle bullet:

""When I was hit I thought it was just a rock or something kicked up by an RPG. I cracked on, but the pain didn't go away. It was like the worst dead leg you've ever had."

Someone with a bullet in the chest could still be physically capable of running you down, especially if they are high on drugs. If you think you can land a headshot or heart shot on a BG while they are charging you with a big blade, go for it.
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It is all about probability. The head and the chest have more vital structures in them than the pelvis does and it is easier to disrupt those structures. If I shoot in the pelvis, I must break the pelvic girdle in two places or hit the shaft of the femur. Both of those targets are way more challenging than a shot to the head or chest. However, if I am a little off in the chest area, there are still major blood vessels, blood bearing organs, lungs, etc.

Either way, I run the risk I will not stop the threat immediately; but the chest gives me better odds. This is why even the places that do teach a pelvic shot teach it only as an alternative target when chest shots are not having a desired effect (possibly due to body armor).
 
I would watch the video, but it requires a Youtube account that I don't have. Tried registering but I found out (and actually pis*ed me off) that Youtube wanted to know my phone number and I don't wanna give that information to them. Enough that they would have my e-mail. Since I'm a native spanish speaker, guess I could give a hand with the dialogues.

Although our training standards are (I bet) quite higher in my country that in central america, I remember my instructors at the Academy telling us about the "seven meters (21 ft) rule", knifes and firears. And that no matters whether you are Steven Seagal or not, a blade moves quickly and if you fail at grabbing and inmovilizing the hand that holds it (assuming you wear proper anti-cut gloves) or you will surely get cut and/or stabbed.

Sad thing is that, for us over here, you may get a bad guy as close as one meter to you, you may be lying on the floor as a result of having slipped and fallen down during the chase, you produce two 9mm shots and hit the chest of the BG, who succumbs to the wounds. My friend still had to prove his innocence in Court, since those shots had not been aimed to "non vital parts of the body" as our regulations state.

That's why, yes, how happy I would be having those prosecutors and judges sent to our academy, or to the worst neighbourhoods in Sevilla and Madrid, and let them taste the tension of facing a knife and the dilemma of choosing between your life, and your career, job, and freedom

An old spanish cops' saying states something like "Better have your family bringing you cigarettes to prison, rather than flowers to your grave".
 
My friend still had to prove his innocence in Court, since those shots had not been aimed to "non vital parts of the body" as our regulations state.
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What?! Do your regulations expect you to target an assailant's arms when faced with a lethal threat?
 
This video seemed all too familiar to another. Might have been the same country, but the perp was slender and wearing a white shirt. In that debacle,
he managed to strike an officer once. Every stab was a fatality. With all the officers his physical build gave him that advantage (god didn't create all men equal, browning did?) with the knife up close. You also hear the gun fire when the police realize all too late what they should do.

Of all the things in world police are criticized over, shooting knife wielding men that demonstrate they will attack, is something you have to give police the benefit of the doubt for doing. If only the powers that be would extend the same to civilians.
 
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Thanks, Kodyo. The sound is poor. At the beginning looks like he's asking for his wife and the journalist tells him something like "she says you wanna kill her". Then one of the cops says "you're not going to solve anything like this (with this attitude)" and it's when he stabs the first officer. The way the subject is approached is wrong, I agree, but I dare to say that the way they approach the subject has to do with the fact that it looks like it's someone known to the officers. They treat familiarly.

Personally, I wouldn't have ever approached someone armed with a knife without having drawn my gun firstly, regardless of any kind of familiarity.


@2damnold4this: Yes, it's that bad. We are expected to shoot to non-vital parts of the body, and actually get in trouble when an offender dies in a shoot-out. Usually, the case is looked upon with a huge magnifiying glass in Court. In most cases, even if the offender uses adeadly weapon like a firearm, knife, katana or similar, officers are released from charges, but you still have to prove in court that you couldn't have acted in a different manner.

The concept of "use of lethal force" is not contemplated. It's contemplated the "use of firearms", but as the biggest oxymoron possible on earth, officers are expected to be able to shoot, under tension and in a life-threatening situation, to the BG's ankles and still, stop them with a 9mm. "Protection of life" seems to be the reason, but under this <cursed> regulations, an Officer's life appears to be less valuable than an offender's one.

Explanations to this?. The need to "democratize" a police force that was a repression instrument during Franco's dictatorship, and with the advent of democracy during late 70's-early 80's. Shame is that no politician appears to realize how different the police forces are nowadays from those of the old days, and how different a kind of criminality we have in the present day.

We'll regret from this. We are already doing but there's the worst to follow with the ex-East block mafias. I honestly envy your regulations. They protect the innocent and bring adequate support to law enforcers. I say this because I've done my bit of peacekeeping and have worked with americans officers too.
 
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thanx, Kodyo

I too couldn't get thru Utube's stupidity.
I had my step daughter watch it with me to pick up on the Spanish better. She's said the reporter asked what he was up to and he said he wanted to kill his wife. she also said this is an old tape as she saw it on the news a couple years ago. It took place in Juigalpa, capitol of Chontales, a region know for cattle raising. If you ever get the chance, they have a great little archeological museum and a so-so zoo, and one of the nicest public parks in the country (Parque Palo Solo).
No going to restate all the above good posts, but it seems that the police are under extreme pressure not to kill anyone. It also dawned on me that the police weapons may not have been loaded. Not exactly the type thing I'm going to ask a cop on the street, but someday at a social event I'll ask these type of questions after I have been properly introduced. (If you think people don't go around with unloaded weapons, you have never been in the US Army!).
Nicaragua does not have the death penalty, largely as a knee-jerk reaction to the murders committed by the old Somoza dictatorship 30 years ago. This is not likely to change in the near future because there is also a major distrust of the court system.
Broadcast said 1 officer killed, and 2 wounded. It didn't say anything about the perp, so he probably survived his wounds.
 
I think as soon as he took a step towards an officer, they should have opened fire on him big time. JMHO...
 
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