Knife-wielding suspect vs. 5 armed officers

If the BG has a weapon, we should not use bare hands if other options exist.
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Plus if the bad guy is trained in how to properly use a knife, particularly offensive use, many of the disarm and defense techniques wouldn't be as easy as in the dojo. A miss would indeed be problematic. A couple misses and it could be over.

In theory each cut should disable an appendage.
 
a person with a knife is a very serious lethal threat that you cannot simply dismiss because you've got a gun.
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I really do not know anyone that would not treat a threat from a knife the same as they would a threat from a gun.

I may not be able to dismiss him, but I would sure dispatch him unless good sense overcame him.

I have no more to fear from a knife than I do a gun.
 
The people who come up with rules of engagement rarely ever have tried to implement them.
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If they ever did they quickly forgot how KEYED up EVERYONE is when something like this happens. Every time it got to the point of having to use a weapon to subdue a fighter, I was always scared to death, as I really did not want to hurt anyone NOR was I going to let someone hurt me or my partner.

I remember seeing a video, years ago, of the White House police deal with a man with a knife who had gotten on the grounds. There were 6 - 7 of them they surrounded the guy, each one of them had what looked like a baton that was 4 - 5 feet long, every time he moved one of them hit or poked the poor guy with their stick. It only took about 30 seconds for him to give it up. That was a very professional response to a dangerous situation.
 
"That was a very professional response to a dangerous situation."

You can bet that someone was pointing something else at him, in the event he was able to break the cordon and endanger one of the officer's. I would add that in that situation, if he needed to be shot, it should also be thought of as a professional response. Looking back at the video, it amazes me that it took this guy repeatedly stabbing multiple victims before someone started shooting. The guy with the AK should have hosed him and ended it before he ever got started.
 
This video illustrates the need for distancing yourself from a threat. If you are armed with a missile weapon and confronted by a determined assailant, who is only armed with a hand held weapon, then by all means make distance your ally and do what you have to do. The officers here were either absolutely unprepared for their duty assignment or they simply did not take this threat seriously. When I was in San Diego I got drunk and passed out in a gutter:owhen base security were called about it(it was directly across the street from the base) I got a bit surly with them so they put me down with their sticks. The moral of the story is: you use sticks against a dumbass drunken sailor who is UNARMED not against an angry man with a knife! Mleake ain't kidding about the hand, mine never did heal after the last time I broke it and it was well tended to.
 
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Whew. Thats the kinda video that makes the .380 you CCW feel a bit like a BB gun. Regardless, the tactics and attitude with which the police approached were undoubtedly why this situation became as lethal as it did.

I don't speak Spanish, but based on tone of voice I can tell that no strong verbal commands were given, and no active plan or tactic was in progress.

Instead of isolating the suspect so that he could be fired upon without risk to others (which they could have done easily by the look of it) if need be, they did the opposite, and put people on the side of him that did not have any before. When he initially went for the officer with the AK, no shots could be safely fired because of the people already lined up at the fence. By the look of it, as he ran between officers, no officer could take a shot without a substantial risk of hitting one of the other officers they had scattered all over the place.

All IMHO, I also feel that this is one of the best videos/scenarios I have seen here to date. A real eye-opener and mental conditioner.
 
By watching the video, its hard to believe that those men are trained law enforcement. I am a very lightly 'trained' civilian and I can see they did nothing correctly. What a waste of human life.

I was confronted by a man with a knife some time ago, armed with a 9mm (JHP) and made similar mistakes. I didn't react soon enough and the result, 7 stab wounds to the chest and back. I am very fortunate to have been able to learn from this experience and carry on. Watching this video was a very good reminder of what happened and how to properly handle the situation. I am willing to bet, much like myself, the surviving officers wont make the same mistakes again.
 
First off... my heart goes out to the officers and their families who were hurt during the attack.
I can imagine how they must have felt after realizing how they allowed themselves to be hurt so bad, or possibly killed by simply giving the man with the knife the benefit of the doubt.
The attacker only took one swipe at the officer with the AK and it seams like that one swipe may have been enough to kill that man. This is a prime example of the extreme danger of knifes.
People are used to feeling a situation out, and you would like to think you could have a close personal conversation with someone and talk them into surrendering. But taking a gamble like that is obviously not worth the risk. I'm not saying you have to be cold and inhumane and only go off training and logic, but only after following sound tactics and not allowing yourself or anyone else to be a target can you begin to reason with someone who may potentially kill you. If they have any possible way to hurt you, you need to focus on one thing, and thats changing the situation so that they can NOT hurt you.

Again, I feel really bad for these folks. The whole situation went down the wrong way, from the reporter continuously pushing the soon to be suspect despite his efforts to be left alone, to the police surrounding the suspect like a gang would someone they were going to beat up, to the officer holding the AK in one hand and a baton in the other, to people not taking available shots, and so on and so on.

This reminds me of when I was younger when I would have confrontations from bullies, they would try to start a fight with me and get in my face, and I would stand my ground and let them say all they wanted and even push me, but I'd just stand tall and wait for them to finish. But then on a few occasions when the same sort of thing happened, the guys would actually get upset that I would not fight and then actually punch me in the face. I wasnt ready for it, and didnt expect it, nor did I actually think they would really do it. Just like I'm sure the officers didnt really think the guy would ACTUALLY start stabbing them.

Just goes to show, you can never be too careful when involved in any sort of confrontation.

Again, I feel really bad for those guys. Thats a really hard way to learn a lesson, and I wouldnt wish that upon anyone.
 
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Surprising what one determined dude can do with a knife; especially when the cops are so stupid. You can't just put on the uniform, you have to train some too. I can't think of anywhere I have ever been in America where that guy wouldn't have been taken down by the cops, quickly. I would; I guess. I mean, I am a real non-violent dude, but when your life is threatened, what can you do? That's why I try to stay out of trouble.
 
Bear in mind that training may be minimal, if there is training at all, in third world countries. They have minimal budgets, and often as not no traditions to uphold.
 
Lots of training or not, it still is surprising how nonchalant the officers were around this guy. It shouldn't take training to understand that a determined BG with a blade is extremely dangerous.
 
I'll give you that point, SirSloop, but I was referring less to non-chalance, and more to poor tactics and readiness.

That said, a friend of mine was a corrections officer in the Florida panhandle. He wasn't remotely non-chalant, yet he froze like the proverbial deer in the headlights when an inmate came at him with a shiv. Took a downward stab in the shoulder as a result. Other CO's restrained the guy.

Met that CO in the dojo, a few months after the incident. He never wanted to freeze up like that again.

Next time he got attacked, it was by a trustee on a road crew, who was wielding a bush axe. My friend took the axe and knocked out the trustee with one entering disarm. Training made a big difference, there.

Had another acquaintance, a Marine, who was moon-lighting as a reserve cop in Riverside, CA. Went to assist a team that was taking down a gang's house. My acquaintance was ready to deal with big, bad gang-bangers, but wasn't prepared to shoot a 13 year old; the kid pulled a cheap .22 or .25, and shot the Gunny in the gut. Luckily, the vest worked. After that, the Gunny was much more mentally prepared to shoot a kid, if necessary.

Sometimes, people just don't know how to react. Training can make a world of difference. Where training fails, experience will take over, assuming one survives the experience.
 
sirsloop said:
Lots of training or not, it still is surprising how nonchalant the officers were around this guy. It shouldn't take training to understand that a determined BG with a blade is extremely dangerous.
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I'm sure the operative word there is "determined". It's easy for even well-trained officers to get lax because "nothing ever happens"... Until that one time it does.

Without training, and when "nothing ever happens" and when this guy was "normal" just moments before, it's easy to see how the deadly encounter could BEGIN but how they don't even seem to be particularly ready to use deadly force even AFTER he goes nuts is a real mystery.
 
I think some fault lies in the "nothing ever happens" excuse but I also believe that many officers are good people who hold back from using deadly force to long out of kindness.

Good tactics like "maintaining separation" would buy considerable time and allow for much more lead to be administered. In the fluid situational response system we would simply run away while delivering accurate continuous fire. This of course assumes that we have identified the threat, pulled on it prior to them committing to the attack, and have the necessary room to run.
 
To quote myself from a while back....
The more I read/see the more firmly it becomes entrenched in my mind that if someone approaches me in an aggressive manner and they have a knife then they are going to get shot. No dithering, no wondering about "unequal force" or any other nonsense, they are either going to back off or they are going to get shot and I'll deal with the fallout later.
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Haven't been able to get thru to Utube, so I`ll try again tommorrow.
This seems like a rerun of an incedent 2 0r 3 years ago in Managua when several police tried to talk a guy down and got stabbed for their efforts.
Anyway, Nicaraguan police tend to be fairly well trained in general (although I think the Tuefler drill hasn`t made it here yet!) but grossly under-equiped. Most police carry AKs not because of a need for the fire power, but as a budget issue. they have so many left over from the civil war they can`t justify buying expensive 9 mm to replace them. Bank guards here tend to have folding stock mossberg pumps--cheaper and more effective than pistols.
Also keep in mind that many uniformed police here are volunteers, whose training and experience are probably zip. Weapons training is scant for cost reasons unless it involves ammo left over from the war, which excludes most modern pistol ammo.
I witnessed an incident a couple uears ago in which a man was in front of his house swinging a butcher kife and yelling something about Jesus Christ and drugs. Across the street was a large group of spectators and at least 4 cops standing by patiently. I walked the 2 blocks to the house to get my point and shoot camera and by the time I got back it was all over and everybody was gone. Seems like the police just waited for him to run out of steam and then took him downtown for a chat, which would undoubtably include a visit to the shrink.
Incidently, compared to other 3rd world places (Mexico, for one) Nicaraguan cops tend to be polite and soft spoken and bend over backwards to avoid violence. Obviously in this case they goofed-- I`ll try to see the tape tomorrow and see if I can add anything.
 
Training failure. Poor/absent tactics. No plan.

1. The first officer down was using his rifle primarily as a badge of office. If he ever pointed the rifle at the knife-wielder, it wasn't for very long and I missed it. Mr. Roberts' comment about using a firearm as a magic talisman is right on target.

2. If you aren't going to use a firearm, or aren't going to take your responsibility to use it seriously, you're better off giving it to someone else responsible who will use it, or putting it somewhere no bad guys can gain access to it. The officer with the rifle should have hung back to provide cover for the other officers. That would have prevented the rifle from being taken out of the fight and being essentially useless to the remaining officers. When the man made his initial rush he could have been immediately dropped or at least shot very early in the attack. The other officers are VERY fortunate that the knife-wielder didn't pick up the rifle after downing the first officer and use it against them.

3. If you aren't sure you can get away from someone then don't try to run--especially if the terrain is rough. In this case the officers tried to run over rough terrain while keeping track of their assailant which inevitably resulting in their falling down and being caught and stabbed. It seems likely that they would have been better off facing him and possibly taking some defensive wounds rather than running, falling and ending up at the attacker's mercy.

4. Have a plan. When the first officer went down, the remaining officers seemed to have no idea what to do. They didn't know whether to run, fight, assist fallen officers, try to overwhelm the man, etc. So some did one thing while others did another. After the first officer was stabbed, approximately 15 seconds elapsed before a shot was fired by the other officers, even though during that interval at least 2 other officers were attacked and stabbed. There was little or no cooperative action taken by the remaining officers to resolve the situation. In fact, nearly 4 minutes after the first officer was stabbed, the attacker was still unrestrained. Admittedly he was apparently badly wounded and on the ground but it speaks to the fact that there very little evidence of any sort of organized activity on the part of the officers. Contrast that with the attacker's actions. His plan was simple and he implemented it with conviction and persistance until he was injured badly enough to put him on the ground.

5. Don't render yourself essentially unarmed by trying to do too many things at once. If you're in a standoff only a few feet away from a man armed with a knife, keep your gun at the ready. Holding a stick in one hand and your rifle by the forearm with the other hand makes you ill-equipped to bring either one into play effectively.

6. Don't get confused about what the problem is and don't downplay a threat. If you're being attacked by a determined attacker and you can't effectively get away then your goal is to disable him as rapidly as possible. The fact that he is armed with a contact weapon and you have a gun doesn't make him any less a threat unless you can't guarantee that you are able to keep out of his reach.
 
MLeak said:
Bear in mind that training may be minimal, if there is training at all, in third world countries. They have minimal budgets, and often as not no traditions to uphold.
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MLeak is exactly right. With a quick search on the internet you can find videos like this all day long. The officers in this video never had a chance.

When they tried to disarm the man with the knife the officer with the rifle would have been better served with just a stick and a free hand since he already made the decision that he wasn’t going to use the rifle (at least in my mind) as opposed to keeping the AK in his left hand. It left him completely open to the knife attack and unable to use either weapon effectively.
As a civilian, the biggest lessons that I learned from this video (which were touched on by JohnKSa):

1) Don’t bring a firearm into play unless you are prepared to use it without a doubt.
2) Keep as much distance between yourself and the threat as possible at all times.
3) If under direct attack by a determined threat, retreat only when it is safe to do so.
A. Be aware of your surroundings.
B. Don’t give the threat your back or better positioning.
C. Simply turning and running away from a threat with a weapon might not always be your best option.
 
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