KelTec .380 Accidental Discharge

Sometimes weird stuff happens.

http://www.northwestgeorgianews.com...cle_c91eb208-0e37-11e4-ac61-001a4bcf6878.html

A few details not in the story. Several deputies went to an address to serve a warrant. The person no longer lived there. While interviewing the former roommate the gun discharged in the holster. The deputy had a notepad in one hand and a pen in the other. Several witnesses, including the person being interviewed confirmed this.

The incident is still being investigated and no other details are available at this time. At least none made public.
 
It is totally frightening what a two-yr old can do.
Mostly I think it is the fact that kids don't know NOT to use ALL their strength...
so everything they do is Full-Bore...Maxx Effort...

I woke up one morning to the (monitor) sound of one of my twins getting up...
they would go out into the living room and play relatively quietly until one of us got up...
as we had gates & half doors to keep them out of trouble areas...
so I slowly got up & dressed, wandered out...then heard "Hi Daddy!" from ABOVE my head...
16 month-old Logan had climbed on top of my Grandmother's China Cabinet (then used as a toy cabinet)
and was just lying there on top between it and the ceiling...I sucked in a breath, smiled and said "Good Morning, Logan",
carefully reached up and brought him down...then had a long talk about what not to climb...
still ended up getting him down from there at least once a month...
Thank God I'd attached all furniture to the wall...still do. Never know what they'll climb.
Heck, they even try to climb the fridge!! Its got a strap to the wall too!!

Now 3 years & 3 months old, weigh around 40 pounds and are both over 3'3 tall...
John regularly knocks over full-size adults...he's a tree stump :)
Logan climbs like a monkey...incredible arm & hand strength for his age...
Nurses classify them as "Amazingly Strong"...good genes!!
And yeah, I'm one proud papa!!
 
A P3AT can be carried in a shirt pocket. THAT may explain HOW a person holding a 2-year old could have his weapon accessed by the child.

The OP doesn't explain where the bullet hole in the clothing was found... But some two-year olds, grabbing a P3AT in a shirt pocket, using the thumb as the trigger finger and the rest of the hand on the grip -- that GRASPING motion, like might be use to pick up something -- could certainly do it. Lots of leverage compared to a finger. Done that way, the hand is more powerful. (It could also explain why the man and the kid weren't harmed...)
 
A P3AT can be carried in a shirt pocket. THAT may explain HOW a person holding a 2-year old could have his weapon accessed by the child.
Click to expand...

From the Florida Times Union artical linked to the article linked to in post#6
http://members.jacksonville.com/new...ntally-fires-fathers-gun-inside-wendys-bullet
I know, a lot of stinkin' linkin', but facts are facts.
He had been carrying his personal .380-caliber Kel-Tec semiautomatic pistol inside the right front pocket of his pants, when it went off.
Click to expand...

Again I ask how are a two year old's arms long enough to reach into a front pant pocket when being carried? Unless the guy was doing the "Lady hip carry".
 
I have always been told and believe that if you are going to pocket carry, use a quality holster.
When carrying a loaded firearm the trigger should always been protected.
 
I don't know what happened, and I agree he SHOULD have had a holster, but anybody who doesn't think a two year old has the grip strength to pull a trigger has never tried to take anything away from a two year old. I've picked them off off the ground while they were holding onto stuff. I've had to pry those little fingers off one by one.

After all, the kid didn't HAVE to only use one finger to pull the trigger. Let him get a couple of them in there. They'd fit.
 
He may not be able to pull the trigger, but a 2 year old has enough strength to push on a trigger-trapped gun and cause it to discharge. I am guessing the pistol and hand were not the only things in the pocket.
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We have a winner. :)
 
It'd take a pretty stupid firearms investigator not to be able to prove this story is total bs.

Even if the deputy was a midget and the 2 year old was exceptionally tall.

Assuming the toddler did stick his hand in the pocket, we have reckless endangerment to say the least.

I can see DFS having a hay day with this one, not to mention the Dept. IA.
 
James K said:
I strongly advise never underestimating the strength or determination of children.
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This. I'm constantly amazed how strong and determined my 9-month-old is. And I'm sure she will be strong enough to pull a light DAO trigger like that by the time she's two. Heck, she could probably do it now. Keep in mind that they don't have to pull it in the traditional way, they have small fingers and can get several of them in the trigger guard to help them pull it. They could also push the gun up against something while their fingers are in the trigger guard.

As for how the kid could've reached the pocket, that's entirely possible. The average 2-year-old boy is just under three feet tall. Add in arm length, and it wouldn't be difficult for him to reach into his dad's pocket unless he was very short for his age or his dad was very tall.

All that being said, it wouldn't suprise me if the dad was actually the one who pulled the trigger while reaching into his own pockets, and he just blamed his kid out of embarrassment.
 
Double action guns are perfectly safe for pocket carry without holsters.
Never put anything else in that pocket, and use common sense.
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I agree 100%.

An unholstered gun is perfectly safe in a pocket as long as there's nothing else in there. No ammunition, no magazine, no hands or fingers. Just the unloaded gun. :D
Pocket and waistband carry have been accepted methods of carry for a long time.
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There are lots of things that are accepted, or have been accepted in the past that are still not safe. Acceptance is no guarantee of safety.
Keltec sells a belt clip for unholstered waistband carry.
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The fact that something is for sale doesn't make it safe.

I have to say it's pretty ironic to choose a discussion about a gun that was discharged unintentionally in a pocket as an opportunity to try to prove how safe unholstered guns are in a pocket.

Incidents like this are wonderful opportunities for us to learn by observing as opposed to having to learn by doing. Experience is a very good teacher, but I've found it desirable to avoid learning by experience when the lesson involves something as dangerous as a gun going off when I don't want it to go off. I'm content to let someone else be taught by experience so I can learn from their mistakes as opposed to having to make those same mistakes myself.
How much safer are D/A guns unholstered in pockets than holstered?
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A gun in a proper holster that covers the trigger is pretty safe. Assuming it can't fall out of the holster, it's as safe as a cased firearm which is about as safe as a loaded firearm can possibly be.
 
John,
Lets assume you are carrying a P3AT IWB with the clip. How is that less safe than carrying an unholstered P3AT in your pocket? I would think it even safer than pocket carry. Nothing can get to the trigger.
 
Nothing can get to the trigger.
Click to expand...
The clip does nothing to protect the trigger. It's not any different than carrying IWB without a holster except that it's much less likely that the gun will slip out of the waistband and down into your pants.
 
Incidents like this are wonderful opportunities for us to learn by observing as opposed to having to learn by doing.
-------------------------------------------------

Its why I really like posts like this --- just bought a pocket holster!!!
 
I read over the story one more time just to clarify one point. Somewhere in this discussion I got the idea the deputy was holding His son when he reached into his pocket. In reading the story agai it says nothing about that.
It's still a little difficult to accept that the 2 year old could get far enough into an adult's pocket to reach the trigger of the gun without the person knowing it was happening.
 
I was looking for some updated reports and couldn't find much further investigating it, but I did come across this from the Florida Times

"He had been carrying his personal .380-caliber Kel-Tec semiautomatic pistol inside the right front pocket of his pants, when it went off.
Magish said his son “stuck his hand into his pocket looking for a snack and that the firearm had discharged,” Deputy J.R. Holmes wrote in the incident report".


so apparently he was not being held, and it was in a pants pocket. not that this changes anything, just thought I would share
 
My first response would be . . . that if it was possible . . . the off duty officer should have enough sense that if he's carrying in a pocket to NEVER let his child reach in to it. My next question would be . . . when he's home, does he leave it to where the kid has access to it?

I think there is more to this story than is being told . . . IMHO
 
Double action guns are perfectly safe for pocket carry without holsters.
Click to expand...

Not true at all! If your DA wheel gun has the hammer covered, then it may be so!!!

The year was 1976, and daughter, wife, friend and myself were headed west for the first time, to see Yellowstone Park during our nations centennial. I had in my right front pocket, an S&W stainless, model 60, with exposed hammer. I tired out and John took over the driving chores, with me in the rear behind the passenger seat. I started to notice that something was poking me in my right hip. I slowly put my hand in my pocket and felt the cocked hammer with the gun pointing straight ahead towards the passenger seat, and/or my leg … I screamed at John to pull over. Everyone went to the left side of the car while I extended my right leg straight out of the car to make sure nothing put pressure on the gun, then very slowly pulled the gun out of my pocket trying to hold the hammer at the same time!

I HAVE NEVER CARRIED AN EXPOSED HAMMER REVOLVER IN MY POCKET SINCE!!! I have carried my 642 and 442 without worry. The hammer is very dangerous without a protection pocket holster, and I wouldn’t do it with one myself. IF the hammer is covered by design then it is no problem for sober and lucid folks who are experienced shooters and trained in gun handling to do so in my opine here today!
 
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