Kahr vs. Kel-Tec

Onslaught,

Kahr will send FedEx to your HOUSE to pick up your faulty pistol at NO cost to you. (Not even shipping).
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Thanks for that tidbit. That means that Kahr's customer service is on a par with Taurus, and they're both better than Kel-Tec since KT only pays one-way shipping under normal circumstances.

Did you have occassion to send one back to Kahr for service, or is your information second hand or further removed?
 
Mini14jac

The number of people who had had "real"problems with their Kel-Tec P11's is small. It wasn't an opinion, it is a fact. And if they make 100,000 guns a year and only a mere 2% have problems than that is an extremely low number. And if I am looking to make a purchase and have a 98% chance of getting a good quality compact 9mm (and not a lemon) than I would say those chances are high. And oddly enough I do not base my information only on what I read on various gunboards. I know that's crazy, but it's true. My local dealer has sold over 300 Kel-Tec P11's, he has had to send 3 back for repairs (or 1%). But feel free to call Kel-Tec and get the actual overall percentage.

Your "overpriced gun" theory was flawed as well. My $100 Makarov is an incredible shooter and perfectly reliable. I suppose I could have bought a Walther PPK for 4-5x that, but that doesn't make it a better gun. I think a Glock 17 is every bit as good as an H&K USP 9mm or Walther P99, for quite a bit less. Are one of those guns better because they cost more? Nope. My point is that it's all relative, and dollar amounts do not always equal quality.

The 1911 has it's own subculture of tinkering, customizing, F&B and modifications, but I somehow don't see that diminishing the good old mil-spec 1911.

mlk18
 
I have a Kahr MK40 that I love. It is 100% reliable and functions perfectly, but the finish out of the box was far from perfect. I had this gun special ordered, so I couldn't see it before I bought it. My MK40 has several very noticeable machine marks between the cocking serrations and the extractor looks like it got chewed up in a grinding machine! Very rough. There was also a small dent in the back of the slide. I was not expecting such a rough finish on a $500+ gun.
I contacted Kahr and they offered to replace the extractor and install it for free. These flaws don't really bother me, because the gun functions perfectly, but I though it was strange that my brand new Kahr's finish looked worse overall than the finish on most P-11s that I've seen recently.
I'm not criticizing Kahr, I still love mine. I just wanted to share my experience.
Not all Kahrs are 100% beautiful out of the box and not all Kel-Tecs are rough and ragged.
In fact, I plan to buy a P-11 this week. It looks great and I figure for $258 it's worth the gamble. I hope it works as well as all my other guns. (I already have a perfect out of the box P-32) I really don't expect to have any problems with it, but if I do, I'll post it here on TFL.
 
Debates like this are so common. It's like arguing over whether a BMW is better than a Chevy. They both get you where you're going, and chances are they are both reliable. There are lemons from both companies. It's a tactile difference. The BMW just has a much more quality feel about it. Some people care about that and some don't. Also, it could be argued that the BMW, with proper maintenance, will outlast the Chevy.
I think the differences are the same with these two guns. Some people argue, why spend the extra money for a Kahr when the Kel-Tec is just as good? If you don't appreciate the difference, then the Kahr is certainly not for you.
 
I`ve done quite a bit of shooting with a Kahr K-9 Elite and it`s really a fine gun but about $100 overpriced IMO. It can do absolutely NOTHING my P-11 can`t for the extra money in fact quite to the contrary my P-11 has advantages all over it. The P-11 is MUCH lighter, smaller,holds more ammo and has the luxury of Keltecs brilliant belt clip. With over 8000rds. through my ol P-11 I`ve had 1 jam,win. white box "fun ammo" that jams occasionally in everything I`ve tried it in. The Elite I`ve shot several hundred rounds through has been very reliable but has jammed at least twice after the first 200rds. The Kahr is accurate and pleasant to shoot but fact is I shoot my P-11 just as well. I can tote my clip equipped P-11 effortlessly where the K-9 is bigger,heavier and requires a holster. If I`m gonna go that route (which I often do) I just carry my CZ-75. IMO CCW guns are tools,like a hammer not objects d`art. The Kahrs are marvelously made guns,very pleasant to hold and shoot and their triggers are simply delicious but in this case they don`t make the tool do it`s CCW job any better. As a pure CCW tool the P-11 has too many advantages to ignore and IMO comes up the clear winner. If I just wanted a gun that was pretty and nicely made I`d side with the Kahr. Of course in that case I`d rather put the money towards a Cassul or a mint Pasadena Automag. As for the BMW/Chevy thing and the tactile difference I`ve found it`s 99% mental. When folks pay big bucks for something they`ll convince themselves it`s better no matter what. In Germany BMWs and Mercedes sell for a comparable price to what Chevy`s sell for here. They use them for taxis and police cars etc.,nothing special about em in general,just cars...and hype (like a lot of other things). Marcus
 
OK, here are some of my own statistics:
Of 3 P11s that I have first hand knowledge, (two that I owned, one was dealer rental), all had what I consider "show-stopper" problems out of the box.
-mainlly, frequent jams with multiple ammo types.

Of 5 P32s that I have first hand knowledge, (I own 2, brother owns 1, friends own 2), 4 had out of the box, "your gun died so you will be killed" failures. Mainly, trigger problems, but jamming was the number two issue.

Out of 8 guns, 1 has yet to fail. That is an 88% failure rate.
3 of these guns were bought on my recommendation.
(Editors note: The one gun from this sample that has not yet had a failure, has only 14 rounds fired through it.)
So, if you are basing your claims on your 1 gun, and maybe a buddys gun, who has a better sample?
I was a member of the KTOG newsgroup for over a year.
Yes, it exists to fine-tune the guns, but many (most?) of the posts were repetive, how-do-I-fix-this? posts.

A KelTec gunsmith told me that the P11 doesn't work well with Winchester white box, or Wolf.
(My "overpriced" Glocks and Kahr eat both like candy.)
If you bought an economy handgun, don't you think it should work with economy ammo?

I'm not trying to get anybody pissed, or start an argument.
If I offended anyone, I apologize.
I have two P32s because there is nothing else in the size/power/wt. class right now.
They are reliable now, but I hesitate to trust them fully.

There is also nothing else that shares the size/wt./capacity/power/price class with the P11. That is why I have bought two. I love the way the gun feels in my hand, and it is not bad looking either.
If the quality control has finally improved I may buy another, but I would immediately go to work on the trigger if I do.

As I said, it is a highly personal choice.
Personally, my time is more valuable than my money.
I will pay an added $200-300 for a gun that I don't have to work on.
If you like to tinker, you will probably love a KelTec.
If you get a KelTec that is 100% for you, (and you probably will), then be happy.
My needs are different than anyone else's.

The micro Kahr polymer may be what I am truly looking for, who knows? (Somewhere down the road, after the bugs have been worked out.)
 
Oh, and one more thing.....:)
Blackhawk,
I have already read your trigger mods.
Excellent work!
If I ever get another P11, I will do your mods.
The trigger was my biggest gripe after reliability.

And I do have a real problem with paying 5 or 6 hundred dollars for a 1911-style pistol, that needs another 5 or 6 hundred dollars worth of work to make it reliable.

And everybody knows that H&K and Sig guns are overpriced.
:D
(Don't flame me, I'm kidding, I'm kidding!)
 
mini14jac,

Thanks for the additional information, but that still leaves me with questions about the jams, failures, etc.

Kel-Tec's position seems to be "don't talk to us about jams, etc., until the gun is broken in after firing at least 100 rounds." I don't agree with that because it should be delivered new without a tendency to jam since I'm sure a lot of buyers also buy a minimal amount of ammo, take the gun home, load it, and put it in their dresser or night stand.

About how many rounds have been fired through each of the "88% failure rate" Kel-Tecs?

More specifically, what have the failure rates been after each pistol has fired at least 100 rounds?

As a matter of curiosity, were each of the guns thoroughly cleaned and lubricated before ever being fired?

I ask the last question because my P-11 was NOT ready to fire right out of the box, IMO. The magazine was so tight that it was a real challenge to load 10 rounds into it, the action was quite stiff because of residual manufacturing crud mixed with the factory grease on the slide and other components, and the new recoil springs were remarkably stiff. Before firing pin ever struck primer, I throoughly cleaned and "exercised" the pistol and magazine by repeated dry firing, manually cycling through loaded magazines ejecting the cartridges onto the floor, repeatedly loading and unloading the magazine, and generally satisfying myself that the new pistol was ready to go. I may have inadvertently "broken in" my P-11 before it ever fired a shot! But that's my habit with any new machine -- I even baby new cars for a few thousand miles -- since I won't trust it until it's proven itself, and a machine that's been abused from the start is more likely to suffer premature failures.
 
"...and the elegance and simplicity of George Kelgren's design is ingenious, IMO." -- Blackhawk
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I share your opinion. A locked-breech design in a pistol that weighs 6.6 oz. is remarkable!

I have a P-32 with a very low serial number...it has more than a thousand rounds through it without the first hiccup. In fact, I and three of my friends tried to break it when it arrived and we couldn't. It just kept running...and still does.

As far as pride of ownership goes, I'm proud the Kel-Tecs I own and have owned. Excellent utility for the money...real bargains, each and every one. And customer service that is a model for the industry.

RE: the BMW vs. Chevy argument...

My experience has been that those who don't see a practical difference don't own/haven't owned a BMW.

That said, I'll take the P-11 over the Kahr, thank you very much.
 
python1340,

Thanks for the link.

That should be a good seller as a CCW! The thing I'm unsure about is that Kahr says "stainless steel slide" which begs the question of whether or not the other steel parts are also stainless. A stainless slide goes a long way toward CC in hot climates where the gun is exposed to sweat, but "all-metal-parts" in stainless is what's needed.

I had a PPK .380 in stainless that was fired, put away dirty, and never touched for 15 years by the previous owner. It still functioned perfectly although it was a little stiff. After cleaning and lubricating, it looked like new and was a real sweetheart.

As a backup pistol, the new Kahr might be a great choice and even better if all its metal parts are stainless.
 
Zander said:

My experience has been that those who don't see a practical difference don't own/haven't owned a BMW.
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LOL! I must live in a parallel universe or something. The top three brands for reliability by reputation seem to be Mercedes, BMW, and Volvo. Maybe all my friends who've owned them are "born losers" because they've had endless trouble with them requiring frequent (and expensive) visits to the dealers for "factory authorized" service.

OTOH, my friends who have Ford or GM vehicles seem to drive them for a hundred thousand miles plus (with oil changes and a set of tires during that time) and then get new ones. One who got a Mercedes quipped "I've never known a mechanic personally before getting that car!"

Another friend absolutely loves BMW and Mercedes, but he owns an upscale garage that caters to them. ;)

None of that addresses the Toyotas, Nissans, and other Japanese cars, which are reputed to be the best of them all. They just don't ring my chimes, though. I buy American for nationalistic reasons, and they seem to be the best choice economically as well. YMMV.
 
My 2 cents

As of last weekend my P-11 has 13,750 rds thru it. The only problems I've ever had with it were with Corbons which for some reason it doesn't like, A box of magtech that you couldn't dent the primers with a 20oz framing hammer, and winchester white box, and I have yet to have any luck with any gun and winchester ammo. Mine does have a few add-ons, a stiffer recoil spring, extended grip, etc. When I went to buy it, I was torn between it and a Kahr, but the decision boiled down to 2 factors. Capacity and weight. In these two things the KT wins hands down. As far as reliablity goes, my experience means more to me than the dozens of peope who insist on telling me my gun is junk. It ain't pretty, but I'm not going around showing it off. If I wanted pretty I'd carry a wheelgun.
 
I carry the Kel-Tec when I carry my S&W 659. The Smith magazine will function reliably in the P-11. When I carry a Kahr, I carry a second. I believe in redundancy.

Both makes have been reliable when I have used them; neither has ever failed to 'go bang' when I squeezed the trigger.

I like the KAHR trigger better but have no objection to the Kel-Tec's. My scores are better with the KAHRs.

With Corbon 115-grain +P, the felt recoil (for me) is less noticeable with the M9096A; lesser for the K9096A. The recoil of the P-11 is 'sharper' but not excessive.

I can carry the P-11 for longer periods than the M9096A as it is lighter. It is for this very reason that I no longer 'own' the P-11. My wife has "appropriated" it for her own use.:p
 
I guess I shouldn't have brought up the BMW/Chevy analogy, as it only creates a side debate. But since I did...I never mentioned reliability. If that's the only thing you're looking for in a car, get a Toyota, Honda, Lexus, etc. What I did say was the BMW (or Porsche, Mercedes, Audi) has a much more solid/quality feel about it. They are more fun to drive. And although they do require more maintenance, they tend to last a long time. If you're someone who looks upon a car strictly as an appliance, you won't see the value of a BMW.
I like the Kahr better because it is higher quality than the Kel-Tec.
If it wasn't reliable, I wouldn't even consider it, but it is extremely reliable. That coupled with its aesthetic appeal, makes it a winner in my book.
 
harrydog,

I like the Kahr better because it is higher quality than the Kel-Tec.
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"Better" is a subjective conclusion that can be based on qualitity as an amalgum of objective criteria, such as suitability of materials, fit, and finish. Kahr wins in my book on only one criterion, and that is finish. So, we agree on that point.
If it wasn't reliable, I wouldn't even consider it, but it is extremely reliable. That coupled with its aesthetic appeal, makes it a winner in my book.
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So is the Kel-Tec "extremely reliable," whatever that means? It is in my book -- 100% -- and it just doesn't get better than that, and I'm not alone!

Now, we're at "aesthetic appeal" of a gun! Not a sunset, not a flower, an animal, a bird, or a jewel, but a GUN -- a noisy machine that can draw blood when operated "safely" and presents substantial dangers should it fail or be used improperly -- we're talking about the aesthetic appeal of a GUN!

A machine DOES have an aesthetic appeal to humans that seems to be directly related to how well and reliably it performs its functions. My beautiful and totally reliable P11 (or P9) will lose all of its aesthetic appeal the first time an unexplainable failure occurs. (At this time, they share that characteristic almost equally with the nod going to the P11 only because I'm intimately familiar with every single part in it, and I haven't become so with the Kahr.) Machines I don't trust are ugly, and I don't want them around. But I'm the same way about people, dogs, food, and almost everything else...!

Kahr and Kel-Tec pistols are both winners in my book, but the competition (what started this thread: Kahr vs. Kel-Tec) nod goes to the Kel-Tec because it has higher utility due to its higher capacity and lower cost.

Next, I want to get an example from the third manufacturer in this category -- Taurus -- but that's for another thread.
 
I recently bought a Kahr K9 just because it was a good deal, look superb and had the sweetest trigger this side of paradise. However if I had had to pay the retail price of $634.00 it would still be in my buds gun shop lingering in the show case. He sold it to me for #387.00 out the door so it followed me home. I was amazed at the accuracy that the little gun showed and the fit and finish is first rate. But it stays in the gun safe and my Kel-Tec P-40 is what gets carried. I sent it back to Kel-Tec for the hardchromed finish and night sights and it's been completely reliable since new. I also have a reliable P-32 which goes everywhere with me and there's no competiton for it in today market. Who else makes a locked breech, 8 shot .32, with a polymer frame and hard chromed slide that weighs a feathery 6.6 ounces? Nobody, so that's why I bought my P-32 and I've talked 8 of my friends into buying one and they all love the cute little devils.


7th
 
Reliability, in the context of this discussion, means no FTF, FTE, no jams, no failures of any kind. You pull the trigger, it works.
Higher capacity would be nice, but really, I feel that 8 or 9 rounds of 9mm is perfectly adequate for concealed carry. And I just get pleasure out of owning and using things that are very well made. Cars, cameras, Mt. Bikes (in the past), knives (a cheap knife will probably work as well, but there is something about a Sebenza), tools, and of course guns.
As I said, if this is not something you care about, then the cheaper product is the one for you.
 
Harrydog... great minds truly do think alike...

Knives: Bob Terzuola, Koji Hara, William Henry
Guns: Kimber Custom Eclipse, Kahr MK9 Elite, Walther P99

'Nuff said. :D
 
I agree Harrydog, you described my Kel-Tec P11 perfectly!

Unfortunately I have no idea what a Sebenza is (besides
the obvious fact that it's a knife). I carry a CRKT K.I.S.S.
Original.

mlk18
 
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