Kahr vs. Kel-Tec
- Thread starter Shmackey
- Start date
I really tried my best not to choke on my coffee while reading your question... but I suppose you're truly being legitimate and not facetious.
Reliability is a tricky thing. If a particular P11 proves to have been 100% dependable, you can't get much more reliable than that, can you?
Flawless function is of course impeccable... and some P11's out there will grant you just that.
However, if one were to tally the number of reliable K9s and reliable P11s out there, I'm entirely confident that the K9 would prove to have less lemons.
Of the other inquired attributes, I believe that the K9 exceeds the P11 on all accounts.
The accuracy of a typical K9 is what you would expect from a quality full-size duty sidearm, not a compact CCW piece. The K9 enjoys many praises from influential firearm connoisseurs for it's amazing accuracy.
Likewise, the K9 is also exalted for its butter-smooth trigger-pull straight from the box.
For those on a budget, the P11 is a fine choice that has proven itself as a reliable performer suitable for CCW.
For those who take the initiative and spend the extra green for a K9, they will most certainly be thoroughly pleased with their choice, finding that the K9 IS worth the money.
Reliability is a tricky thing. If a particular P11 proves to have been 100% dependable, you can't get much more reliable than that, can you?
Flawless function is of course impeccable... and some P11's out there will grant you just that.
However, if one were to tally the number of reliable K9s and reliable P11s out there, I'm entirely confident that the K9 would prove to have less lemons.
Of the other inquired attributes, I believe that the K9 exceeds the P11 on all accounts.
The accuracy of a typical K9 is what you would expect from a quality full-size duty sidearm, not a compact CCW piece. The K9 enjoys many praises from influential firearm connoisseurs for it's amazing accuracy.
Likewise, the K9 is also exalted for its butter-smooth trigger-pull straight from the box.
For those on a budget, the P11 is a fine choice that has proven itself as a reliable performer suitable for CCW.
For those who take the initiative and spend the extra green for a K9, they will most certainly be thoroughly pleased with their choice, finding that the K9 IS worth the money.
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Eric Larsen
New member
You do get what you pay for. The Keltec guns are generally regarded as a great gun. They had teething problems as any new gun company has but has done well to correct them.
The Kahr is just a plain and simple "top shelf" gun. They are almost too good. I have shot both of them and own a Kahr.
Just make sure if its a CCW, you run enough ammo thru it to
make sure YOUR GUN is up to the task....regardless of who makes it.
Shoot well
The Kahr is just a plain and simple "top shelf" gun. They are almost too good. I have shot both of them and own a Kahr.
Just make sure if its a CCW, you run enough ammo thru it to
make sure YOUR GUN is up to the task....regardless of who makes it.
Shoot well
Bullwinkle
New member
Have one of each. Both guns serve well for their intended use, but there is no pride of ownership with the Kel-Tec.....it has nothing to do with what I paid for each.
I stayed away from the Kel-Tec P11 for a long time because of all the complaints I heard with early production guns. But after realizing that the number of people who actually had problems with the P11 was small, I decided to buy one. The trigger was longer than I expected, but very smooth. I have 400 rounds through it to date with 100% reliability and good accuracy. The addition of a trigger shoe and mag extension (finger rest) has made a big difference too. My only regret is that I waited this long to buy one.
As far as Kahr goes, they are quality guns, but ridiculously overpriced in my opinion. Except the E9 series which are much more reasonable. I have found most guys I know (locally) that have medium to large hands hate the Kahr, while small handed people love it. I for one can't shoot one worth a darn because the trigger reach is so short, and the trigger pull is so stagey and mushy.
mlk18
As far as Kahr goes, they are quality guns, but ridiculously overpriced in my opinion. Except the E9 series which are much more reasonable. I have found most guys I know (locally) that have medium to large hands hate the Kahr, while small handed people love it. I for one can't shoot one worth a darn because the trigger reach is so short, and the trigger pull is so stagey and mushy.
mlk18
Capacity? That's a factor for me. Kel-Tec.
Pride of ownership? Not a factor for me, but if it were, I do like a good deal.... Then again, maybe it is a factor because I'd feel a little stupid paying three times as much for a comparable product.
Reliability? Comparable -- both 100%.
Elegance of design? Comparable, but the edge goes to Kel-Tec. George Kelgren's design is elegantly simple adhering to the "form follows function" rule that I espouse.
Etc.
I like the P-9. It points well, shoots, well, etc. So does the P-11 on all counts. I have no complaints about either.
I admire the Kel-Tec because of the company, the design, the moxie of the company to take on the "establishment" in producing and marketing their guns, and the fact that they're located in a state with more reasonable gun laws.
It's all subjective. Take your pick!
Pride of ownership? Not a factor for me, but if it were, I do like a good deal.... Then again, maybe it is a factor because I'd feel a little stupid paying three times as much for a comparable product.
Reliability? Comparable -- both 100%.
Elegance of design? Comparable, but the edge goes to Kel-Tec. George Kelgren's design is elegantly simple adhering to the "form follows function" rule that I espouse.
Etc.
I like the P-9. It points well, shoots, well, etc. So does the P-11 on all counts. I have no complaints about either.
I admire the Kel-Tec because of the company, the design, the moxie of the company to take on the "establishment" in producing and marketing their guns, and the fact that they're located in a state with more reasonable gun laws.
It's all subjective. Take your pick!
I've owned both and kept the Kahr P9.
Pro P-11:
cheaper magazines ($18-20 vs. $25-37)
higher capacity (10rds vs. 7-8)
Great service.
Half the price.
Feeds anything.
Pro P9
A little lighter
Much thinner
Much better trigger
Decent service.
Con P-11
Ejection haphazard, brass in the face (the main reason why KT bought the gun back from me)
Hand hurts from combination of recil and very heavy trigger
Con P9
Premature slide lock when new
Premature slide lock with +P ammo (Speer Gold dot: combination of heavy recoil and very long ammo shape)
All in all, P9 wins inmy books. P9 vs. G26 is a closer match and I will post a detailed review soon.
Pro P-11:
cheaper magazines ($18-20 vs. $25-37)
higher capacity (10rds vs. 7-8)
Great service.
Half the price.
Feeds anything.
Pro P9
A little lighter
Much thinner
Much better trigger
Decent service.
Con P-11
Ejection haphazard, brass in the face (the main reason why KT bought the gun back from me)
Hand hurts from combination of recil and very heavy trigger
Con P9
Premature slide lock when new
Premature slide lock with +P ammo (Speer Gold dot: combination of heavy recoil and very long ammo shape)
All in all, P9 wins inmy books. P9 vs. G26 is a closer match and I will post a detailed review soon.
Walt Sherrill
New member
I owned and shot a P-11 for several years, without problems. I just couldn't shoot it as well as I could shoot other guns, but shot it well enough that I didn't feel endangered were I to have to use it in self defense.
I've also shot the K-9 and K-40, and more recently, the P-9. Loved the trigger.
I liked the P-9, but found the steel-framed Kahr TOO HEAVY!
My only real concern about the Kahr guns is their limited round capacigty. (But in a real world confrontation, I don't know if anyone really, practically, needs more than 4-5 rounds, if that.)
Budget, more than anything else, would probably dictate which way I went, were I to have to pick one or the other. And that fluctuates...
I've also shot the K-9 and K-40, and more recently, the P-9. Loved the trigger.
I liked the P-9, but found the steel-framed Kahr TOO HEAVY!
My only real concern about the Kahr guns is their limited round capacigty. (But in a real world confrontation, I don't know if anyone really, practically, needs more than 4-5 rounds, if that.)
Budget, more than anything else, would probably dictate which way I went, were I to have to pick one or the other. And that fluctuates...
I don't think anyone will argue that the Kahr is the better of the two guns. However, if I'm not mistaken the Kahr costs just about twice as much as the Kel-Tec. The question becomes, is the Kahr twice as good as the Kel-Tec? That would be largely up to the individual. I don't think so but if you do, more power to you.
McKamie Wilson
New member
For me, the choice was simple: the Kahr did not fit but the Kel-Tec did. So, I gota Kel-Tec P40. With the trigger shoe and the magazine extension. I fired it 11 times right after I bought it and had 5 FTFs, sent it back to Kel-Tec for service, and got it back within two weeks. Now, after over 500 rounds, I have had NO failures of any kind. It's small, powerful, and accurate. I love it. 
You really should try both. Get the one with which you are most comfortable. It's a carry gun... you are going to be around it a lot.
Mac
You really should try both. Get the one with which you are most comfortable. It's a carry gun... you are going to be around it a lot.
Mac
Dave T,
Since they're both 100% reliable, but the P11 doesn't draw blood, has greater capacity, and is half the price, how can you conclude that the Kahr is the better of the two guns?
Is it perhaps because a small percentage of P11s supposedly need some post delivery finishing before they're 100% reliable (at least according to some of the anecdotal posts you can find on the Web, but mine was perfect out of the box)? By the same token, the Kahr needs some gunsmithing to remove the sharp biting edge....
Is it perhaps because some P11 shooters don't like the long DAO trigger pull as well as they like the P9's elite trigger? My favorite trigger isn't factory standard on either of these nor is it on a DAO pistol -- it's the 1911 trigger.
Is it because you think the P9 is more attractive? In the eye of the beholder.... While I like to look at them both, that's got nothing to do with "better" or "worse" since their jobs don't involve "pretty," and I think the P11 has better lines.
Just curious....
I will!
Since they're both 100% reliable, but the P11 doesn't draw blood, has greater capacity, and is half the price, how can you conclude that the Kahr is the better of the two guns?
Is it perhaps because a small percentage of P11s supposedly need some post delivery finishing before they're 100% reliable (at least according to some of the anecdotal posts you can find on the Web, but mine was perfect out of the box)? By the same token, the Kahr needs some gunsmithing to remove the sharp biting edge....
Is it perhaps because some P11 shooters don't like the long DAO trigger pull as well as they like the P9's elite trigger? My favorite trigger isn't factory standard on either of these nor is it on a DAO pistol -- it's the 1911 trigger.
Is it because you think the P9 is more attractive? In the eye of the beholder.... While I like to look at them both, that's got nothing to do with "better" or "worse" since their jobs don't involve "pretty," and I think the P11 has better lines.
Just curious....
I would argue that point as well....
I have no experience with a Kahr P9, but I do with a K9. I have medium to large hands, and the trigger reach was so short that it felt like I had to touch my own palm again to fire off a round. And I just did not like the trigger, felt as if each pull had multiple stages. Accuracy was fair, concealment was good but I just could not get over how uncomfortable it felt in the hand. It's funny because Kahr handguns are just not popular in my neck of the woods. But then again I "love" my Kel-Tec P11, so you should presume that I am biased.
mlk18
I have no experience with a Kahr P9, but I do with a K9. I have medium to large hands, and the trigger reach was so short that it felt like I had to touch my own palm again to fire off a round. And I just did not like the trigger, felt as if each pull had multiple stages. Accuracy was fair, concealment was good but I just could not get over how uncomfortable it felt in the hand. It's funny because Kahr handguns are just not popular in my neck of the woods. But then again I "love" my Kel-Tec P11, so you should presume that I am biased.
mlk18
Tropical Z
New member
The Kahr's are the Ruger 10/22's of the handgun world.If they fit and you like them thats great,if not theyr'e worthless.I'd pick the Kel-Tec out of these two but would not consider either of them if a FEG P9RZ was available.
Blackhawk,
Since you're "curious", I'll answer you.
I think the Kahr is a better design, made of better materials, and generally better fininshed, with better sights.
That being said, please note that I also said I don't think the Kahr is worth twice as much as the Kel-Tec. I own a P-11 which I use in my CCW classes as an example of a compact 9 and a DAO. I don't carry it but recommend it as IMO a better choice than any 5 shot, 2" 38 revolver.
Since I seem to have offended you by expressing my opinion, I most humbly appologize for treading on what must be your sacred ground. Opinion withdrawn, least I offend someone else.
Since you're "curious", I'll answer you.
I think the Kahr is a better design, made of better materials, and generally better fininshed, with better sights.
That being said, please note that I also said I don't think the Kahr is worth twice as much as the Kel-Tec. I own a P-11 which I use in my CCW classes as an example of a compact 9 and a DAO. I don't carry it but recommend it as IMO a better choice than any 5 shot, 2" 38 revolver.
Since I seem to have offended you by expressing my opinion, I most humbly appologize for treading on what must be your sacred ground. Opinion withdrawn, least I offend someone else.
Dave T,
Offended me? No way!
I really was just curious.
Design? That's debatable, of course. I've been a mechanical designer for more decades than I care to recount, and the elegance and simplicity of George Kelgren's design is ingenious, IMO. That doesn't mean Justin Moon's design is inferior. It just means that I admire Kelgren's more. While Moon's idea to use steel inserts into the polymer frame for the slide to run on is clever, it hasn't been implemented well if judged by the many reports of them warping.
Materials? The polymer is the same stuff in both. For guns, SAE 4140 steel is pretty much the cat's meow, and both use it. Likewise with the KT's alloy frame -- best choice for the job.
Better finished? You're right on that. The Kahr's metal parts are obviously machined under higher acceptance standards with better finish on several parts whereas several of the Kel-Tec parts appear to be "as machined" instead of going through finishing processes. However, the interfacing and operating parts on my P-11 were comparably finished to the Kahr. I just prefer all parts to be finished on all their surfaces. That's an area where the the Kahr must cost more to make than the KT.
Sights? That's also highly subjective. I don't really have a preference between them, but I think they're both superior to, for example, those on the Walther PPK .380 that I got rid of a while ago.
Bottom line: In your opinion, the Kahr is better, but you stated it as a fact, and it seemed that you couldn't imagine anybody arguing with you about it!
In a certain respect it's like arguing that a car painted with 23 coats of hand rubbed laquer under two clear coat applications and whitewall tires is "better" than the same model with just the robot applied factory paint job and blackwalls. Objectively, one isn't better than the other, but based on subjective reasoning, the spiffier one will command a higher price due to "packaging" despite no commensurate increase in utility. That's why some are willing to pay $4,000 or so for certain 1911's.
My opinion is that the KT delivers to shooters better utility (only due to its greater capacity) than the Kahr for a lot less money.
To me, guns are utilitarian machines, like bulldozers, cranes, boilers, and other specific purpose machines. If beauty isn't a primary consideration, such as in architectural designs, then the price/performance ratio has to be the primary criterion for "better" when comparing two competing implementations.
My curiousity is satisfied, and your opinion is just as good as anybody else's. Thank you.
Offended me? No way!
I really was just curious.
Design? That's debatable, of course. I've been a mechanical designer for more decades than I care to recount, and the elegance and simplicity of George Kelgren's design is ingenious, IMO. That doesn't mean Justin Moon's design is inferior. It just means that I admire Kelgren's more. While Moon's idea to use steel inserts into the polymer frame for the slide to run on is clever, it hasn't been implemented well if judged by the many reports of them warping.
Materials? The polymer is the same stuff in both. For guns, SAE 4140 steel is pretty much the cat's meow, and both use it. Likewise with the KT's alloy frame -- best choice for the job.
Better finished? You're right on that. The Kahr's metal parts are obviously machined under higher acceptance standards with better finish on several parts whereas several of the Kel-Tec parts appear to be "as machined" instead of going through finishing processes. However, the interfacing and operating parts on my P-11 were comparably finished to the Kahr. I just prefer all parts to be finished on all their surfaces. That's an area where the the Kahr must cost more to make than the KT.
Sights? That's also highly subjective. I don't really have a preference between them, but I think they're both superior to, for example, those on the Walther PPK .380 that I got rid of a while ago.
Bottom line: In your opinion, the Kahr is better, but you stated it as a fact, and it seemed that you couldn't imagine anybody arguing with you about it!
In a certain respect it's like arguing that a car painted with 23 coats of hand rubbed laquer under two clear coat applications and whitewall tires is "better" than the same model with just the robot applied factory paint job and blackwalls. Objectively, one isn't better than the other, but based on subjective reasoning, the spiffier one will command a higher price due to "packaging" despite no commensurate increase in utility. That's why some are willing to pay $4,000 or so for certain 1911's.
My opinion is that the KT delivers to shooters better utility (only due to its greater capacity) than the Kahr for a lot less money.
To me, guns are utilitarian machines, like bulldozers, cranes, boilers, and other specific purpose machines. If beauty isn't a primary consideration, such as in architectural designs, then the price/performance ratio has to be the primary criterion for "better" when comparing two competing implementations.
My curiousity is satisfied, and your opinion is just as good as anybody else's. Thank you.
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mlk18 wrote:
Either you made that up, or you don't read internet gun boards very often.
KelTec has a made a HUGE number of guns.
Even if only 2% had problems, that would be way over a small number.
Many, many, many people have had problems of one type or another with KelTec guns.
Yes, KelTec will try to fix them for free, (you pay shipping).
Sometimes they will fix it, sometimes not.
Why would their guns be worth 6 times what a Jennings would cost me.
After many Jennings, Norinco, and KelTec guns, no the above companies are not overpriced. As with most things, you do get what you pay for.
Blackhawk wrote:
There is no supposedly to it. Go the KTOG web page www.ktog.org . The "post delivery finishing" has practically become a sub-culture.
I wouldn't mind that if I was buying a black powder rifle kit, or a model car, but it is supposed to be a working handgun. Not a 70% frame, for Pete's sake.
Bottom line, I guess, you have to pick the one you like.
I have had two P11s, now I have a MK9.
Both guns have their strengths and weaknesses, as already posted.
If you like the Kahr best, but can't afford it, a P11 will probably defend your life, but you'll always want the Kahr.
If you are tickled pink with your P11, I won't try to tell you that you have an inferior gun.
For me, I never felt that, if the chips were down, the KelTec would :
1. Deliver 100% reliability.
2. Given the fact that you are already in an out-of-control situation, hit the target.
(The accuracy is marginal when shooting at targets.)
I don't worry about these things with my Kahr.
I'm glad KelTec, Kahr, and S&W are still in business, and I still have two P32s.
It's a highly personal decision.
Either you made that up, or you don't read internet gun boards very often.
KelTec has a made a HUGE number of guns.
Even if only 2% had problems, that would be way over a small number.
Many, many, many people have had problems of one type or another with KelTec guns.
Yes, KelTec will try to fix them for free, (you pay shipping).
Sometimes they will fix it, sometimes not.
Well, I used to think that Glock, Colt, and S&W were overpriced.
Why would their guns be worth 6 times what a Jennings would cost me.
After many Jennings, Norinco, and KelTec guns, no the above companies are not overpriced. As with most things, you do get what you pay for.
Blackhawk wrote:
... see above.
LOL, stop it, my sides are hurting!!!!!!!
There is no supposedly to it. Go the KTOG web page www.ktog.org . The "post delivery finishing" has practically become a sub-culture.
I wouldn't mind that if I was buying a black powder rifle kit, or a model car, but it is supposed to be a working handgun. Not a 70% frame, for Pete's sake.
Dude, you're in denial. http://www.ktog.org/tecwerks.htm
Bottom line, I guess, you have to pick the one you like.
I have had two P11s, now I have a MK9.
Both guns have their strengths and weaknesses, as already posted.
If you like the Kahr best, but can't afford it, a P11 will probably defend your life, but you'll always want the Kahr.
If you are tickled pink with your P11, I won't try to tell you that you have an inferior gun.
For me, I never felt that, if the chips were down, the KelTec would :
1. Deliver 100% reliability.
2. Given the fact that you are already in an out-of-control situation, hit the target.
(The accuracy is marginal when shooting at targets.)
I don't worry about these things with my Kahr.
I'm glad KelTec, Kahr, and S&W are still in business, and I still have two P32s.
It's a highly personal decision.
I considered both pistols before settling originally on the MK40, and eventually moved to the P40. At the time, the nasty trigger (my opinion) of the Kel-Tec was the deciding factor.
After 4 years experience, this is what I have learned about Kahrs....
The K series Kahr's are NOTORIOUSLY dependable. They are undeniably top notch. I have only ever heard of ONE steel Kahr with a problem, even here on the internet.
Kahr Polymer pistols did have problems when they first came out. What I liked about that? There were 3 distinct issues that I remember... It was consistent. Then Kahr would correct the problem on it's production line, no more problem for subsequent guns. You send yours back. If Kahr fixes it... no more problem, or if not...they send you a new one... no more problem.
Kahr will send FedEx to your HOUSE to pick up your faulty pistol at NO cost to you. (Not even shipping).
Kahr polymer pistols don't cost as much as the steel ones, so they're not "twice as much" as any other pistol mentioned... $150 or so YES, but not double the price.
After 4 years experience, this is what I have learned about Kahrs....
The K series Kahr's are NOTORIOUSLY dependable. They are undeniably top notch. I have only ever heard of ONE steel Kahr with a problem, even here on the internet.
Kahr Polymer pistols did have problems when they first came out. What I liked about that? There were 3 distinct issues that I remember... It was consistent. Then Kahr would correct the problem on it's production line, no more problem for subsequent guns. You send yours back. If Kahr fixes it... no more problem, or if not...they send you a new one... no more problem.
Kahr will send FedEx to your HOUSE to pick up your faulty pistol at NO cost to you. (Not even shipping).
Kahr polymer pistols don't cost as much as the steel ones, so they're not "twice as much" as any other pistol mentioned... $150 or so YES, but not double the price.
mini14jac,
You obviously don't understand the "subculture" you mock! ;-)
It's actually pretty neat at www.ktog.org. The folks there are interested in "tuning" their pistols. In fact, that site is what convinced me to try a P-11, and I've subsequently modified mine to be exactly the way I wanted by "fixing" the trigger. (If you're interested in what I did, I posted the steps on "The Smithy" section of this forum.)
KTOG'ers are a lot like the car buffs of the '50s & '60s. They started out with a Ford or Chevy and "made" them the way they wanted. That spirit lives today with, I think, Honda Civics and definitely among the Low Riders in the Southwest.
I didn't modify my P-11 because there was anything "wrong" with it. I just didn't like the "Lawyerly" trigger on it, and somebody there or on TFL said there's no way to fix it. A challenge! And it was eminently satisfying to meet and defeat....
As for a "small percentage," there are about 120,000 P-11s out there. Since you probably wouldn't believe what KT might say about how many have had problems, why don't you put your time to work supporting your mouth, and come up with the number of posts complaining about unique ones? Bet you can't even come up with 1%, and that Pilgrim is a very small percentage! ;-)
But as you said, pick what you like. I like Kahr just fine, but that doesn't reflect poorly on KT or any other manufacturer. The Glock uber alles or you-name-it uber alles crows are just as mindless as the yellow-dog democrats or any other group handicapped by blind loyalty, brainwashing, or rumor.
You obviously don't understand the "subculture" you mock! ;-)
It's actually pretty neat at www.ktog.org. The folks there are interested in "tuning" their pistols. In fact, that site is what convinced me to try a P-11, and I've subsequently modified mine to be exactly the way I wanted by "fixing" the trigger. (If you're interested in what I did, I posted the steps on "The Smithy" section of this forum.)
KTOG'ers are a lot like the car buffs of the '50s & '60s. They started out with a Ford or Chevy and "made" them the way they wanted. That spirit lives today with, I think, Honda Civics and definitely among the Low Riders in the Southwest.
I didn't modify my P-11 because there was anything "wrong" with it. I just didn't like the "Lawyerly" trigger on it, and somebody there or on TFL said there's no way to fix it. A challenge! And it was eminently satisfying to meet and defeat....
As for a "small percentage," there are about 120,000 P-11s out there. Since you probably wouldn't believe what KT might say about how many have had problems, why don't you put your time to work supporting your mouth, and come up with the number of posts complaining about unique ones? Bet you can't even come up with 1%, and that Pilgrim is a very small percentage! ;-)
But as you said, pick what you like. I like Kahr just fine, but that doesn't reflect poorly on KT or any other manufacturer. The Glock uber alles or you-name-it uber alles crows are just as mindless as the yellow-dog democrats or any other group handicapped by blind loyalty, brainwashing, or rumor.