Kachalsky v. Cacase - NY Carry - Cert Filed

Absent any other optimistic possibility, I have to hope the court is waiting for Woollard and Moore to fully ripen so they can settle them all at once. This is the only possible silver lining I can imagine before folks start sharpening their pitchforks.
 
Jim March said:
* Illinois: Madigan now has to calculate whether to appeal the state's loss in Moore to the US Supremes. If she doesn't the 7th Circuit's holding in Moore stands, which means all existing IL carry bans (open or concealed) vanish in...what, July, right? And it's dicey whether any new law will replace them at all, and if it does it'll be shall-issue, not may-issue.

This is the most interesting piece for me. Is Madigan emboldened by the denial of cert? If so, does she take her train-wreck of a case before SCOTUS? Most of us agree Moore and Wollard are 'cleaner' cases and would be even more likely to meet with success before SCOTUS than Kachalsky, so speaking personally, I would love to watch her walk into what I feel is tantamount to a trap.
 
Al Norris,
I'm new to this site, but not to gun rights, etc.
Thank you for your great thread, and not just being knee-jerk, but reflecting on the reality of the situation.

People forget, in the COTUS, the preamble states:
We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.
That means, hey, we shouldn't let murderous psychos have guns.

Those who think that the village idiot was allowed a gun when the founding fathers wrote the 2A are out of touch... nor were slaves allowed to, obviously. It was already a regulated right.

The truth, however, is the the COTUS is a great document... but the right to defend one's self goes deeper than this great, yet flawed, document. Some call it "Supreme Law", call it what you will, but a free man will defend himself.

Now, this carry issue, it could be a lynchpin to victory... and I'm happy to see NYS having some positive movement after decades of decay regarding the 2A.
 
Now, this carry issue, it could be a lynchpin to victory... and I'm happy to see NYS having some positive movement after decades of decay regarding the 2A.
Help me out here, how is there progress in NY? They completely ban possession by anyone without a NY State pistol license (which they don't grant to non-residents) Their citizen have NO certain path to exercise a right to self defense outside the home, and if they do so without the unattainable license, it is a felony with a greater punishment than pedaphilia.
 
Agreed with what Jim is saying except for Woollard's chances with the en banc. I'd think with Kachalsky booted then any miracle longshot with an en banc just evaporated.
As much as I hate to say it-NY's brief against cert. was correct when it pointed out this wasn't a split with Moore, and they also pointed out there were other cases out there that the court could review when the issue percolated some more. Probably enough to get a few of our justices to pass for now at least.
 
As I said in Post 98 of this thread:

"The political reality is that there will never, ever, as long as the United States of America governs the country, be legal guns in the holsters, whether open or concealed, of citizens walking the streets of New York City.

New York City is "different," "special." It's the headquarters of the United Nations. It has the New York Stock Exchange, Broadway, Times Square, Central Park. It's one of America's two truly international cities. It should properly be considered as America's Hong Kong.

Until SAF and Gura recognize this basic political reality and craft a means of allowing New York City, or just Manhattan Island, not to be governed by the same gun laws that bind the rest of the state, Gura's going to lose, and our rights are going to pay the price.

In Kachalsky, at any level, the court will first look at the case and consider the outcome of granting Gura his desired remedy. If this remedy includes citizens carrying loaded firearms up Seventh Avenue, he's gone too far, and he's going to lose.

If the case were filed blind, where no state names, city names, party names were present in the case, where the pleadings contained merely the text of the disputed law, argument and the remedy requested, he'd probably win the case in a walk. Sadly, cases are not decided in abstract detachment."

This case was a foolish and reckless gamble with our rights. It was an obvious loser from conception, and this ruling does far more harm than Heller did good.
 
Kochman said:
Now, this carry issue, it could be a lynchpin to victory... and I'm happy to see NYS having some positive movement after decades of decay regarding the 2A.

What are you talking about? New York today implemented some of the strongest gun laws ever considered in America, and the state won a victory at the Supreme Court.

Gun rights were clobbered today.
 
New York City is "different," "special." It's the headquarters of the United Nations. It has the New York Stock Exchange, Broadway, Times Square, Central Park. It's one of America's two truly international cities. It should properly be considered as America's Hong Kong.

Until SAF and Gura recognize this basic political reality and craft a means of allowing New York City, or just Manhattan Island, not to be governed by the same gun laws that bind the rest of the state, Gura's going to lose, and our rights are going to pay the price.
We could always cede it to the UN - with US citizens being given lifetime visas for museum and restaurant visits...
 
Let's stop being ridiculous about NYC. Nor should a local entity be able to define away the BOR.

We don't area bash - we support those who live there and fight the good fight.
 
smoking357 said:
...New York today .... won a victory at the Supreme Court...
No it did not. A denial of certiorari is not a decision on the merits. The petition applying for the writ, and the opposition brief, don't even argue the merits. The Supreme Court chose not to hear the case, and did not hear the case. That is not "a victory at the Supreme Court" except perhaps to people who know nothing about legal process.

The Supreme Court receives about 10,000 petitions for a writ of certiorari each year. Of those it grants ceriorari in and hears about 70 to 80 cases.
 
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Frank. Frankly, you don't live here. Had to unload 3 rounds from each 10 round nanny mag today. If I get caught with 7 rounds in my 10 round nanny mag the penalty is worse than incest among other heinous crimes.

This WAS a loss.
 
Have it your way, Frank. If we accept, arguendo, that New York didn't win, it's yet incontrovertible that gun rights lost. Gura was banking on the quite sophomoric premise that "circuit split! circuit split! circuit split!" was going to compel the Supreme Court to accept his case. Of course, the Supreme Court lets many circuit splits stand, and the Supreme Court was never going to allow guns in times Square, so Gura's confidence was well wide of the mark, and his brinksmanship spectacularly failed.

See if you have a lawyer friend who can explain in more detail the consequences of not receiving Supreme Court review. See if this friend can explain Shepardizing, and the treatment Kachalsky will receive.

By the way, the Supreme Court opinion was fortunately not authored, as it would have been worse for our rights than the appellate ruling.

Gura and Gottlieb far overplayed their hands, and gun rights were fronting the bankroll. Now, we all pay because Gottlieb wanted to pose with another check.
 
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smoking357 said:
...See if you have a lawyer friend who can explain in more detail the consequences of not receiving Supreme Court review. See if this friend can explain Shepardizing, and the treatment Kachalsky willreceive....
I am a lawyer. You obviously are not.
 
2ndsupporter said:
Frank. Frankly, you don't live here. Had to unload 3 rounds from each 10 round nanny mag today. If I get caught with 7 rounds in my 10 round nanny mag the penalty is worse than incest among other heinous crimes.

This WAS a loss.
It was a disappointing result. But even if things are over for this case, there are still cases open.

Jim March in post 159, speedrrracer in post 162 and press1280 in post 166 provide some useful perspective.
 
See if this friend can explain Shepardizing,
I'll explain. Shepardizing is the single best argument for using electronic databases, like WestLaw and Lexis/Nexis, for legal research. :)

Sure, I was hoping Kachalsky would get cert, but on retrospect, it may be a good thing it didn't. Emotions and politics are running high right now about Newtown and various gun control measures. While the Supreme Court justices are supposed to be immune to both, they are human beings and can't help but be effected. So, maybe a "cool down" period will be helpful. I'm a "glass half full" type of guy.
 
KyJim said:
I'll explain. Shepardizing is the single best argument for using electronic databases, like WestLaw and Lexis/Nexis, for legal research...
You've got that right. I can't remember the last time I actually had to look in Shepard's with all the information much more conveniently available electronically.

smoking357 said:
...and the treatment Kachalsky will receive...
And while I'm back here, I might as well explain that because the Supreme Court declined to hear Kachalsky it remains the law in the Second Circuit. Of course, if the Supreme Court had heard the case and upheld the Second Circuit, it would be the law nationally. But now it is not.

Oh, and I guess I should comment on this --
smoking357 said:
...By the way, the Supreme Court opinion was fortunately not authored,...

When the Supreme Court denies certiorari it doesn't issue an opinion -- merely an order.
 
Denying cert doesn't give this case any extra authority as it is well established that lower courts are not to draw any inference from a denial of cert.

I'm a little disappointed that cert was denied but there will be other opportunities.
 
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