Justice Ginsburg has died; McConnell vows to fill the vacancy

Put another way how is it in alienable right something that requires a man-made object ?

My view is that the 2nd amendment simply states the obvious: that there is no class of humanity that is denied what other humans have access to. If any people may bear weapons, then all people may bear weapons.

I'm always reminded of the serf class that were denied access to swords. Only those deemed 'worthy' could have those.

The question of felons and Barret's decent are interesting. I've never given it much thought, but does a felon who serves out their punishment get all their rights back?

How does it change if they are violent felons. What if they used a gun in the violence? Should they forever lose their right to bear arms? Are we now saying they are indeed a human that no longer has the right? Or are we saying that they had the right, but abused it and have proven they can no longer be trusted to behave in our society?

I don't have answers.
 
ghbucky said:
The question of felons and Barret's decent are interesting. I've never given it much thought, but does a felon who serves out their punishment get all their rights back?
They used to. Making a felony conviction (ANY felony conviction, even non-violent) into a lifetime ban on the RKBA is a relatively modern concept.
 
On the question of ex-felons being allowed to have firearms, I once listened to a lecture on domestic violence, and something that stuck to me was "THE MOST RELIABLE INDICATOR OF FUTURE PERFORMANCE IS PAST PERFORMANCE". This was from a doctor that had to treat beaten women. So many convictions are plea deals that reduce a charge so prosecutors are assured a conviction. Conviction records may or may not relate to how violent a crime was, but more to how easy a case the D.A. wanted to deal with. It makes me uneasy about having ex-felons with guns. Just an opinion. Grant.
 
Inalienable is often referred to as a God-given right , does that mean God gave us the right to keep and bear arms .

Inalienable, unalienable, and God given rights are also called "natural rights", and it may help clarify some points of view if you think of them in that way.

God (Nature) gave the tiger his teeth and claws, gave the cow horns, the eagle talons and a sharp beak, etc. NO LAW made by man can change or invalidate that.

Each of us as individuals has a fundamental natural right to defend our lives. This right does not exist because someone wrote something on a piece of paper. It exists because WE EXIST. And nothing written on paper or passed by government can change this.

So, yes, "God" gave us the right to keep and bear arms, simply by creating us, in the first place.

My view is that the 2nd amendment simply states the obvious: that there is no class of humanity that is denied what other humans have access to. If any people may bear weapons, then all people may bear weapons.

The 2nd Amendment does not grant any right. It restricts Government from infringing on a recognized natural right.

How well it does that is open to debate. The intent of it, is not.

I'm always reminded of the serf class that were denied access to swords.

Denying a subject people lawful possession of weapons is a very, very old means of attempting to ensure the ruling class remains the ruling class. Sometimes, it doesn't work out the way the ruling class intends...

The now famous martial arts weapon the Nunchaku (nunchucks) was not originally a weapon. It was a farm tool. A rice thresher. Denied swords, spears (bows??) and other recognized weapons by the Japanese, Okinawans learned other uses for the rice thresher....and were obeying the letter of Japanese law while doing it.

Even the most dictatorial rulers do not, and cannot deny farmers the tools they need, because even the rulers have to eat, just like everyone else.

Are we now saying they are indeed a human that no longer has the right? Or are we saying that they had the right, but abused it and have proven they can no longer be trusted to behave in our society?

In principle, since humans do not grant rights, humans cannot take away rights. The violent felon retains all human rights, in principle. What we do is restrict/deny them the exercise (use) of some rights (like locking them up, denying them the right to travel freely). When, THROUGH THEIR ACTIONS they prove they cannot be trusted in society, we restrict their rights, for the safety of all.

In 1968 we passed a law that created a permanent prohibited person status for convicted felons possessing firearms.

The road to Hell is paved with good intentions...

On the question of ex-felons being allowed to have firearms, I once listened to a lecture on domestic violence, and something that stuck to me was "THE MOST RELIABLE INDICATOR OF FUTURE PERFORMANCE IS PAST PERFORMANCE".

And yet, when you look at investments and buying stocks they take great pains to tell you just the opposite, that past performance is no guarantee of future results.

Some people DO change. Most don't.

Where I think we screwed up is the blanket "felony conviction" term because there are so many non-violent (and in some cases non-harmful) offenses that are classed as felonies. Rather than spending the effort, time, and money to look at each case for what it is, an individual thing, we chose a one size covers all approach, and we are seeing the results of that, to this day.
 
44 AMP said:
The road to Hell is paved with good intentions...

On the question of ex-felons being allowed to have firearms, I once listened to a lecture on domestic violence, and something that stuck to me was "THE MOST RELIABLE INDICATOR OF FUTURE PERFORMANCE IS PAST PERFORMANCE".
And yet, when you look at investments and buying stocks they take great pains to tell you just the opposite, that past performance is no guarantee of future results.

Some people DO change. Most don't.

Where I think we screwed up is the blanket "felony conviction" term because there are so many non-violent (and in some cases non-harmful) offenses that are classed as felonies. Rather than spending the effort, time, and money to look at each case for what it is, an individual thing, we chose a one size covers all approach, and we are seeing the results of that, to this day.
If you look at mass shootings and school shootings in the United States, while many were committed by "prohibited" persons, many were not committed by prohibited persons. Cases in point: the Las Vegas Harvest Festival shooting, the San Bernardino shooting, the Pulse Club shooting, and the Republican baseball team shooting (among many others).
 
If you look at mass shootings and school shootings in the United States, while many were committed by "prohibited" persons, many were not committed by prohibited persons. Cases in point: the Las Vegas Harvest Festival shooting, the San Bernardino shooting, the Pulse Club shooting, and the Republican baseball team shooting (among many others).

Isn't that the problem for all of use . The anti's can't point to a reasonable fix because it's so random in reality . There solution is to ban and or take guns away . What's our ( pro gun ) people's solution to stopping mass shootings ? Unfortunately the only honest answer is that a free society has trade offs . We have to except a certain amount of pain to have the things we want . Driving is one , there has to be an incredible amount of death directly caused by driving every year . How about alcohol and driving , domestic violence , child abuse or just plain old how bad it can be for you . Yet there's a constitutional amendment making it legal . Maybe if the 21st amendment had the words "shall not be infringed" we could restrict it more ;-)
 
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Just as an expirement, I looked up the Pulse night club shooter. He had a very troubled youth and had a lot of problems with violence in school. He also was being watched by the FBI, on a terrorist watch list for a period of time.

I think almost all of these people have indications of issues and warning signs (not so for the Las Vegas strip guy) that are ignored or sealed because they were done as juveniles.

IDK what to do without creating 'minority report' type situations.
 
ghbucky said:
I think almost all of these people have indications of issues and warning signs (not so for the Las Vegas strip guy) that are ignored or sealed because they were done as juveniles.

IDK what to do without creating 'minority report' type situations.

Sure, and the Florida high school shooter had a boatload of issues, too. On the other hand, I think it was the San Bernardino shooter (maybe one of the others) who was a licensed armed security guard. So he had passed not just the normal background check for a carry permit, but whatever additional level(s) of check they conduct for armed guards.

The only thing we can generalize on is that we can't generalize.
 
If I had to pick either the next president or next Supreme Court justice, I think I’d rather take the justice. The impact of a strong 2A supporter and fiscal conservative with 20-30 years to sit on the court will likely bear more fruit than a deadlocked president. Thanks
 
Easy to get wrapped around the axle hating this or that candidate. Elections should be about policies. There will always be a 1000 things you could hate about the candidate. They will be gone in a few years. Policies and appointments will haunt you for decades or....indefinitely.
 
The problem I see is in todays environment if half the country believes the SCOTUS is illegitimate and the other half skeptical of the DOJ and intelligent agencies . I don’t see how that’s not a disaster waiting to happen .

I literally had to stop watching all news except my local news three or four weeks ago . I’m just so tired of being lied to . This results in at least for me having very little confidence in anything anyone’s telling me . Not sure how a conservative court will help in the above matters
 
Hearings will start October 12, 2020--

That date is the 139th anniversary of the Gunfight at OK Corral-Tombstone, AZ..

This will be BORK, THOMAS and Kavanaugh all rolled into one and then a little more Id expect.
Schumer has said that the Amer Bar Committees positive recommendation is the "GOLD STANDARD" on three seperate occasion s over several yuears..

Why is he vowing to figjt w/ all his tactics?? Hippocrit.
 
Im not watching or reading anything about it . All Theater with no substance no reason to watch . Same with the big debate tonight .
 
Now that trump has covid and several people that have been around him have also been around Amy Barret . I think everything gets put on hold . Don’t think she’s gonna finish her rounds of meeting senators if that doesn’t happen there’s likely not gonna be any hearings . Don’t see how we have a vote with this new dynamic .
 
Metal god said:
Now that trump has covid and several people that have been around him have also been around Amy Barret . I think everything gets put on hold . Don’t think she’s gonna finish her rounds of meeting senators if that doesn’t happen there’s likely not gonna be any hearings . Don’t see how we have a vote with this new dynamic .
I don't see how Trump's coronavirus changes anything. The nomination has already been made, so (other than back room arm twisting) the White House is out of the picture. The game is now in the Senate.
 
My point was only that many of the people that have been around Trump and Hope Hicks has also been around the nominee . If I was a senator I wouldn’t be comfortable voting for her without at least speaking with her . And I’d avoid her like the plague right now . :eek:

Never mind I just read that she has already had Covid 19 so she’s built up some immunity .
 
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