Just some simple ballistic facts to share.

I find it interesting. I have studied the Luckygunner tests.

To the detractors,can you direct us to a useful resource that is better,done to your standards?
you see,I am grateful Luckygunner took the time and effort to make these tests and offer the results to us,no charge.Since Luckygunner is not an infinitely funded fed Gov't bureaucracy that can pay for 5 blocks calibrated gel for each test,I greatly appreciate having a pretty good "something" versus a perfect "Nothing"
Perfectionism is a way to get nothing done. Being a critic who brings nothing to the table ?
Lucky gunner's tests are as close as I have to DATA. From there,I interpet the data,and for,pretty much,a subjective opinion. Like everyone else.

I guess we can attack the data if it challenges our opinions.

I like comparing the channels,getting an idea about bullets.

Here is my question/observation/and mystery about all this 9mm /40/45.etc.

I get it that if ANY of the chosen cartridge/bullet combinations make a fatal journey through my organs,or a bad guy's,there is probably (guess) a 90% chance cartridge won't make significant difference. I'm on the autopsy slab. Wound channel will be about the same.
I'm not putting any energy into arguing that.
What I DO notice,and wonder about,is the dramatic effects shown with the high speed video.
Whether the gel block bounces and bulges or just flinches a bit.(NOT necessarily caliber related)
I accept the outcome 15 minutes or an hour later is death.
What I care about is the first five seconds after being hit. My assumption is that more gel block drama indicates ,for a few seconds some cartridge/load combinations might be more distracting or incapacitating than others.

I get capacity,control,etc. Forget that for now. Gel blocks don't care.

What is the initial five seconds worth of incapacitation after getting hit.
 
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The most important ingredient isn't the caliber or the pistol, it's the shooter.
Always has been. Truly, the gun (and the caliber) is the least of it.
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Yep, proficiency is king, shot placement is well above caliber choice in any finding...and believing that a one-shot pistol stop is likely with anything other than a central nervous system hit is a dangerous fantasy...boutique bullet 9's or old and heavy .45's still need that kind of precision for an immediate stop. Ballistics are fine and capacity is nice, but you'd better have the ability to place 'em where they need to go when the chips are down. Rod (just adding one more lick to an already well-dead horse)
 
I have no dog in the fight either as any of the martial calibers have reached a technology of being within the statistical noise of each other. They all have minor advantages and disadvantages to each other.

I will say when I last looked at this......that 180 grain HST .40 was a beast. ;). :p
 
Just some simple ballistic facts to share.
http://www.luckygunner.com/labs/self...llistic-tests/

I am posting this thread in response to the recent discussion on .45 and 9mm in the "This store owner is making me buy a .45 now" thread. PLEASE take some time and click that link, line up 9mm against .45. The facts dont lie.

IT IS CLEAR when you look at this data, IF YOU so choose to read through these comprehensive tables, you will see some very obvious, and very negligible differences in .45 vs 9mm. (all data taken from 5 round averages)

Although SOME .45 loads can expand up to a one whole inch, most .45 Loads only expand about .2 inches more than a similar 9mm load. The federal HST loads for example, in 9mm (124 grains) penetrated on a 5 round average 18.1 inches and expanded to .61 inches. The .45 load out of federal hst 230 grain penetrated at 14 inches and expanded to .75 inches.

How important is roughly, .2 inches in expansion to you? Would you rather have .2 inches in expansion and loose a bit of penetration? These common elements can be found through out the tables in the link I have posted.
Its not so much just the damn caliber you carry, but what load and who made that load that matters. some .45 rounds SUCK in terms of penetration and expansion, as do some 9mm rounds.

Look at the facts before yall start preaching .45 acp is the ONLY adequate pistol round for defense. let the attack begin, cheers.
Sawyer.N is offline Report Post
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I've come to think that we're obsessing about trying to optimize something that can't be made all that good. For all the details we argue about, the ranges overlap greatly.
 
More academic, but I have always kind of wondered what the manufacturers would have produced for each caliber without the FBI protocol. Given that manufacturers are designing rounds to fit within its parameters, it makes sense that defensive cartridges all seem to perform similarly.

Don't get me wrong, I think that the FBI protocol was needed, and has been a great aid in improving defensive loads. I just wonder what we would have seen developed if there was no baseline protocol, and if all cartridges are being developed to their full potential.

I'll add that I have carried a number of firearms in various calibers over the years, and really don't have a problem with any of the common carry loads.

YMMV
 
I get it that if ANY of the chosen cartridge/bullet combinations make a fatal journey through my organs,or a bad guy's,there is probably (guess) a 90% chance cartridge won't make significant difference. I'm on the autopsy slab. Wound channel will be about the same.
I'm not putting any energy into arguing that.
What I DO notice,and wonder about,is the dramatic effects shown with the high speed video.
Whether the gel block bounces and bulges or just flinches a bit.(NOT necessarily caliber related)
I accept the outcome 15 minutes or an hour later is death.
What I care about is the first five seconds after being hit. My assumption is that more gel block drama indicates ,for a few seconds some cartridge/load combinations might be more distracting or incapacitating than others.

I get capacity,control,etc. Forget that for now. Gel blocks don't care.

What is the initial five seconds worth of incapacitation after getting hit.
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In experiments that have been done there really is not stretch cavity from handgun rounds. While the blocks might be disturbed, the real deciding factor will be did the mass penetrate to the depth required and do the damage necessary to the organs or CNS to actually lead to an immediate or eventual incapacitation. While I get what you're saying about the blocks moving, if it doesn't have some measurable impact on the wound channel it may be in part due to the fact that you have a gelatinous object resting on a rigid object with no give, i.e. the table, and the energy passes through the block, is bouncing off the table, and back into the block. Does that translate to an effect on a mass of tissue and bone standing upright? I'm not sure. With rifle rounds or very large handgun rounds that block movement also corresponds to a larger cavity or for rifles a resulting stretch cavity. For the major pistol calibers I'm not sure the same is true. I think the measurable impact is the bigger factor.

Any reports I've read or videos I've watched haven't shown any of the primary handgun calibers will automatically result in X seconds of incapacitation. That's going to be entirely dependent on what is actually hit by that round. There are numerous reports of both officers and suspects taking multiple rounds of various calibers and continuing to fight without a notable lull in their attack. I really don't think that's something that can be predicted by watching the block movement.
 
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All the research is fine and good. But, I dont believe it makes that much of a difference in real world use. Euro police carried 32 for decades and have been plenty effective. Assuming this discussion is based on self defense I have to believe that the best possible round is the one thats in your hand when you need it. Seeing as the vast majority of people forget all training in "the heat of battle" a firearm that has more capacity is under most circumstances superior to one that carries less. Unless the extra capacity causes you not to carry it. 380 to 45 are all reasonable choices if a rifle is not on hand
 
I've been involved in one shooting many years ago. Three 9mm rounds, 115 grain Speer HPs through a winter coat and flannel shirt. None exited, all expanded or broke apart. It worked that time. I haven't carried 115gr since 1988 or so, moving on to 124 and 147. Now retired, I may carry a .45 or a 9mm, depending on lots of factors, but mostly using 230XTP in the .45, and 147XTP in the 9mm. It may or may not work if there is a next time. If necessary, I'll do my best to go home. With all the debates over the years, and I've read lots of it, I'll still just do my best.
 
> when comparable ammo is used

That's the kicker. Military-spec NATO 9mm vs. USGI .45 is one comparison; commercial "defensive" 9mm is often loaded *much* hotter, often well up into .38 Super territory. When you start overloading the .45 like that, it's generally called .45 Super, not .45 +P.
 
I've worked alot of shootings in 32 years. Some that should have been fatal, weren't. And, vice versa.

A couple of things that are generally true. If the bullet can penetrate and hit something really important, it usually works. Either right now or, eventually.

Bigger bullets hit things harder than little bullets. Fast bullets hit things harder than slow bullets.

A half inch difference in where the bullet hits can make all the difference in the world.

One guy DRT with a .22 to the aorta. Another alive when he was carted off with a 7.62x39 in the head.

One guy shot in the butt with a 9mm. Dead. Another with a 5.56 through the chest talking. And, then died.

So. Shoot the biggest, or fastest, bullet that YOU can reliably hit the magic spot as fast as you can.

Everything else keeps everyone amused. Including me. :)
 
pblanc said:
think logic dictates that everything else being equal, a projectile which drills out a permanent wound channel one or two tenths of an inch wider than that of another will, or at least could have greater potential to cause immediate incapacitation. Imagine a projectile that barely misses the upper spinal cord or a major nerve trunk of the dominant extremity, for example.
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1) Virtually NO handgun round can cause an immediate incapacitation UNLESS the central nervous system is hit in a critical area. And if the central nervous system is hit (head, spinal column) the difference of .2" may or may not be an issue. You do want every bit of help you can get and a bigger hole does seem to be a bit more help -- if you shoot that bigger caliber well, enough.

2) Secondary wound cavities are generally a non-issue with handgun rounds, unless those rounds exceed 2000 feet per second when they hit the target. Then they can help incapacitate the person hit. Otherwise it seems to be a non-event.

3) Bleeding out, which can be accelerated by a larger wound track, is time-consuming. It gives the other guy too much time to cause YOU to bleed out. Even a hit to the heart can give the other guy enough time to kill you!

As someone said, the gun and the bullet are only as good as the person using them... and it helps if your opponent isn't drugged up, or experienced, and/or highly motivated to take you out.

This sort of discussion always leaves me unsatisfied. There are no magic bullets. And ballistic gel, while better than cardboard, is simulated pork tissue, and most tests don't have anything like bones included in the mix.

It's a shame that the ballistic dummies used in shows like the Deadliest Warriors or Forged in Fire programs are so darned expensive -- as then you could assess what a WELL-PLACE round (or a given round/load) can do. It doesn't tell you whether YOU will do it when you shoot it, however.

.
 
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I agree with most everything you say, Walt, but there are mechanisms by which to cause at least temporary immediate incapacitation short of a hit on the upper CNS.

A hit to the skull that fails to penetrate will often result in unconsciousness.

If you come at me with a gun, and I hit you in the brachial plexus of your dominant extremity, I bet you will drop that piece, or not be able to use it effectively if you do not. Likewise a shot that fractures the bones of your dominant elbow.

A transverse facial shot that takes out both eyes will render that person relatively incapacitated.

A shot to the kneecap will take most people down.

There is also a condition called commotio cordis in which blunt trauma to the predordial area (chest in front of the heart) causes an immediate termination of myocardial electrical conduction and cardiac arrest. I had the sad experience of attending to a teenage baseball player who died this way. He was hit in the chest with a hardball while batting, dropped to the ground, and was dead right there.

Granted, some of these will result in only temporary incapacitation, but often long enough for one to place one or more additional carefully-aimed shots on target.
 
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I was taught that you never fire just once. If you wait until your target is on the ground to shoot it a second or more times you could be charged with murder. You only have a right to shoot when you are in eminent danger of life or limb. As soon as your target is down the threat is gone. Shoot when the threat is obvious and there are no questions.
 
As long as a person I judge to be an immediate lethal threat has a pistol pointed in my direction, I will continue to shoot until they no longer do, regardless of whether they are standing, kneeling, or flat on their back.
 
pblanc,That is what my "5 second" question was about.

I also fully understand about the 2000fps +cavitation wound channel.

I understand handguns don't do that.

I have no idea what it feels like to get shot. I have heard baseball bat.

If you nail me in the heart with an icepick,I may keep fighting as I die of a pericardial tapenade,even though initially might not notice I'd been stabbed.
If you punch me in the solar plexus or kick me in the hangers it would rarely be fatal,but I don't think my own ability to place shots on target would be up to par for the nest 10 seconds (at least).

When I saw on TV Jack Ruby shoot Lee Harvey Oswald in the abdomen with what I assume as a 38 SPL snubbie,Oswald did not look like he had any fight in him.
We keep flogging the dead horse with the same dogmatic opinions(or facts) that have been repeated over and over.

Days ago a "Stupid Criminal" vid went around about thugs trying to rob a gun store.Gun store owner put one bad guy flat on his back instantly with a couple of chest shots (1911).
I know. Shot placement,keep shooting,etc,etc,etc,etc,etc.

I have nothing but my worthless opinion to back it up,

but regardless caliber(I don't care) regardless of what the sliced block permanent channel shows(assume BOTH cartridges being compare have comparable permanent wound channels).....I cant help but think the gel block that just flinches can shoot back,and the gel block that bulges,spins 90 deg,and jumps up 3 inches will say "OOOOOOFFFFFF!!!! bend over and take a couple of deep breaths

But I can't prove it.
 
From the standpoint of "power" I am quite satisfied with anything from 9mm on up. 9mm has plenty of penetration potential, likely too much and there are lots of good HP bullets to moderate this while increasing internal damage. .40 S&W and .45 ACP are theoretically more destructive but the .45 especially pays a heavy cost in capacity.

At the moment, I am inclined to place more value in high capacity than the big bore "edge".

I have nothing against the tiny .380s either for really deep cover settings but today's small 9mms cover virtually all such needs for me.
 
HiBC said:
When I saw on TV Jack Ruby shoot Lee Harvey Oswald in the abdomen with what I assume as a 38 SPL snubbie,Oswald did not look like he had any fight in him. We keep flogging the dead horse with the same dogmatic opinions(or facts) that have been repeated over and over.

Days ago a "Stupid Criminal" vid went around about thugs trying to rob a gun store.Gun store owner put one bad guy flat on his back instantly with a couple of chest shots (1911).

I know. Shot placement,keep shooting,etc,etc,etc,etc,etc.
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Look into the details of the infamous FBI vs Bad Guys Shootout in Miami. Wikipedia has a good write-up. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1986_FBI_Miami_shootout YouTube has a good training film which summarizes things well, too. I think the FBI did it -- very well illustrated.

If you have any LEO friends, talk to them about their experiences in dealing with someone who is cranked up on PCP or similar stimulants. My son, now a NC State Trooper, but when he was a city cop, he once told me about using a TASER on one such guy. They had him cuffed, and were trying to get him into the back of a patrol car, but he was still fighting -- they couldn't close the door on him. They finally resorted to the TASER, and he just sort of giggled but didn't stop fighting them.

There are also any number of tales floating around about people shot in self-defense or police battles who continued their attacks despite multiple, well-placed shots from their opponents. An intense, serious bad guy who is experienced, is a far more worrisome opponent than someone like Lee Harvey Oswald, who was probably stunned, cuffed, and being pushed around, or that "Stupid Criminal" at the gun store.

The opponent's response when shot envolves both physiology and psychology, and that second part can be important. Some folks will fall down when they HEAR a shot fired; others will just keep coming, even if hit, and if they're focused, they may have a better plan than you or me. Not all bad guys are stupid or are ready to give up quickly. The examples you cited are BEST CASES, and I'm not sure they are typical. Many soldiers keep going even when hit multiple times by high-velocity rifle rounds.

None of us should expect any quick stops if we have to use a handgun -- but a handgun is a far better tool than a pointed stick.
 
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I cant help but think the gel block that just flinches can shoot back,and the gel block that bulges,spins 90 deg,and jumps up 3 inches will say "OOOOOOFFFFFF!!!! bend over and take a couple of deep breaths
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Something that is rarely discussed... momentum. This is where the big bores/heavier bullets have an advantage that isn't expressed by simple kinetic energy. It's the same reason why heavy steel poppers often go down easier, and with more authority, when hit by a 230gn ball chugging along at 850fps than the 124gn zipping along at 1200fps.

But I can't prove it.
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Neither can I, but like you I suspect it. I don't really engage in the caliber wars too much, mostly because I believe 40 or 45 does offer a fair amount more "shock" on a COM hit but I cede that this comes at the expense of ammo capacity. So... I think it all really just comes out in the wash.
 
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