Just how stupid are we?

Contracts Vary

Some teacher contracts do actually state specific times to start the duty day and to end the duty day. Many contracts just list a number of hours per day. One Northern California school district contract states that teachers will report to work no later then 8:20 and can't leave until 3:20. A seven hour work day. Another district does state seven hours of work a day are mandated.

Some here claim that teachers are poorly paid, yet they hide what they make. Yes, it is no one's business. But a "Google" search will get you to sites that reveal teacher pay around the country. Even a salary of $45,000 per year averages to a bit over $236 a day on a 190 day contract. Most teacher days are seven or eight hours by contract. At eight hours this would be almost $30.00 an hour, or 60 grand if the pay was extended to a full year.

As I have said, we can debate whether teachers deserve more. But it is a fallacy to perpetuate the myth that they are paid a tad above a Walmart employee.

Some folks just can't handle the truth.
 
As I have said, we can debate whether teachers deserve more. But it is a fallacy to perpetuate the myth that they are paid a tad above a Walmart employee.

Some folks just can't handle the truth.
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Teachers are only now being paid wages in line with their work due to the efforts of the Teachers Union, obviously. The argument presented was that teachers are overpaid, and I think that is incorrect.

You did neglect to add in hours above and beyond "in school hours". I have yet to meet a teacher yet that stopped working when leaving the building.

Maybe we should compare education expenses in the US versus other countries? While we have the best universities (both private and public), our k-12 does fall behind. Our culture is not that of those countries that are at the top. Of course, we also have more families with two parents working so there is less study supervision.
 
Teachers are only now being paid wages in line with their work due to the efforts of the Teachers Union, obviously. The argument presented was that teachers are overpaid, and I think that is incorrect.
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The argument presented is that schools are failing the kids. That kids are graduating high school with no clue who John Hancock was, where Israel is on a map, or how to make change from a dollar without a calculator. The discussion about teacher pay came about because any discussion of the complete failure that is public education always degenerates into "well if teachers were just paid better than Walmart workers" so now that's been put to bed. For the last 20 years teachers have been well paid for the hours worked, benefits received, and job security enjoyed.

We also had somebody spout the union propaganda that kids not being able to make change from a dollar is all the fault of testing. The exact opposite is true. If kids were prevented from moving from the third grade to the fourth without passing a standardized grade level test in history, geography, math, spelling, reading, and English, and the same for 4th, 5th, 6ths... right up to the 12th grade then we wouldn't have 17y/o kids dropping out because they are 9 years behind and can't read a diploma. We also wouldn't have classes held up every year while teachers struggle to get the victims of social promotion up to speed.
 
Admit It Then

If teachers are that badly under paid then why are they hiding their wages. If they don't want me to know, they can look at the salary schedule from their district and post what the starting pay is and what maximum pay is. They can also tell us how many contract days they have and contract hours they have to work.

If they give us the figures we can do the math. Then we could sympathize with them.

To all nonteachers reading this, I bet dollars to doughnuts that we will never get those numbers.

I was trying to bring honesty to this debate by bring up facts and figures. If anyone has different numbers please post them.
 
Our culture is not that of those countries that are at the top. Of course, we also have more families with two parents working so there is less study supervision.
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IMHO, you hit the nail on the head. Its not that our kids are "dumber", but rather, in many respects our current(American) culture sets them up for failure. Do we place an emphasis on the importance of education? Absolutley, but there are many things in our culture that delude that message.

A part of that culture that I'm referring to is the "parents always working" aspect. Sorry, but I agree with this. Part of that culture change in America occured when companys begin (wrongfully IMO) asking/demanding their employees work longer, more days, and take work home with them. Something has to give and that something will almost always be "family time".

Many people have mentioned Japan. I lived in Japan for 4 years and can tell you first hand the school system is completely different. Japanese kids go to school 6 days a week, year round. Second, school is from 7:00 a.m. to 4:00 or 5:00. Third, if a student is failing or struggling in one or more subjects, the parents have to hire a tutor to work with the student a minimum of 2 hours after school for each subject that the student is having trouble with. Now, obviously not every Japanese student is a genius/rocket scientist/cancer curer upon graduation, but their obviously doing something right, and their test scores generally show that.

The above also reminds me of an article I read somewhere. It was talking about how in America, throughout the 1960s there was a sudden surge in how well students were doing and the amount of people attending college.
What they had observed was how peoples attitudes had changed at that time.

Life magazine had done a story on "life in Soviet Russia". One of the things parents, gov. officials, teachers and students noted was, what was being taught to Russian kids. To quote the article, "Soviet kids were learning (at the high school level) nuclear physics, engineering, etc. and our kids were hanging out at malt shops and going to sock hops."

Among other things, the author believed that article was a catalyst for changing the attitudes about the importance of education in America and it showed as the 1960s has often become referred to as the "Intellectual Decade".

I dont think its any one thing that contributes to our students trailing other countrys. Its a combination of cultural differences between countrys, cultural differences between races in the U.S., "pop culture", and the work culture in the U.S. that all contributes to a decline in how well students do.

In short argueing the "minutia" of one paticular part of the problem is a waste of time. All of us are to blame in one way or another, either in how we live, how we work, world view etc. Its all of those things put together that contribute to the problem.
 
Setting it straight #2

Georgia has no teachers union getting us big raises or benefits. We are nothing more than state employees.

Georgia's new teachers since 2000 have no tenure(including me) which keeps us from getting fired. The teachers in the system that already had tenure were grandfathered in. They still have it. The ones without it can be fired very easily.

Georgia's teacher salary was among the nations lowest till Zell Miller(Governor1990's) did something about it. Teachers couldn't be found because college graduates wouldn't work for peanuts. Now, the southernmost counties in Ga are being swarmed with Florida teachers coming across the line for higher pay.

Every state is different. These broad generalizations y'all are making are largely untrue. They aren't a true representation of the country.

Roy, I've been nothing but honest with you. I've stated my contract days as well as my hours worked. Look back at my posts, I have said nothing about teachers pay being low. If it were so low I wouldn't have changed jobs! My salary is my business and I find it appalling that you have the gall to ask me my salary on a public forum. I am a private person and that is considered private information to me. I haven't seen your salary posted either, nor am I asking.
 
Can you teach curiosity? Can you teach ambition?

A teacher who has the charisma to captivate a bunch of kids can make more money with it doing something else as it is extremely rare.

The attitude that if a teacher gave you a spanking you will get another when you get home has changed to we will sue you and the school as little Johnny can do no wrong to completely banning any corporal punishment. This with a lot of help from the ACLU to the point that a classroom is more a challenge of maintaining order than teaching anything.

This and a policy change to pass everybody through for a couple of decades regardless of accomplishment made a mess of education. And then you have the cancerous bureaucracy at federal, state, and local levels.

I actually think that it is irreparable. Luckily, I am the only one in my family that is not a teacher or principal.
 
I notice people getting more self-centered every year. I've concluded in my short 40-years that:

People don't really “grow-up.” If you meet someone who's “mature,” they're just playing grownup.
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I think you have summed up the modern American in two sentences.
 
I'll happily accept that teachers turn in a good day's work for the money they make and that they're just as good pound-for-pound as people in the private sector as soon as we get school choice. Until then, I have to think that they don't defy the socialist gravity that afflicts every provider who gets your money whether you like their service or not.
 
By the way, what do you mean by "Hiding their Wages"? You seemed to find it no problem. With a quick google, the very first page that pops up told me everything I needed. Who is hiding the wages?
 
In 1995, I had to read Catcher in the Rye for my junior year English class. And when I say I had to read it for my class, I don't mean that it was just my assignment to read it. No, I had to read it aloud to my class. These were 16 and 17 year-olds! And it's not a hard book! Since I'm in the position now to work with some of the latest graduates of the public school system, I don't think things have gotten better.
 
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