Just a "Minor Setback" for Fourth Amendment Rights

I'm glad that the balance is coming back in favor of the good guys.
2 million Americans in prison, what with all these dastardly drug possession crimes. I'll gladly give up a bit of freedom if .gov can promise me 2 million more. ;)

Yup, at last they'll be able to clean up the streets without all that crap about breaking into people's homes and "innocent until proven guilty"...after all there's a warrant.

Rich
 
Would you rather let 10 criminals off or accidentally bust in 1 wrong home? In the previous case, 10 people have their right to justice violated. In the latter, only 1.

That equation will only be attractive to you until that one person is you, or one of your friends or family members.
 
No-knocks make it impossible to tell whether people barging into your home are criminals or police... until it's too late to do anything about it if they are criminals.

The result is either a refusal to defend yourself in your home, or cognitive dissonance worrying and not-worrying about who you might be shooting at if someone breaks in.
 
I'm going to offer a prediction - when they're finished wiping their butts with the 1st, 4th, 5th and 6th Amendments - they're going to come after the 2nd. They need to get the riff-raff out of the way first, and they're doing a good job.
 
When I was a kid people still talked about "The Four Freedoms".
freedom_from_fear.jpg


The old folks still talked about FDRs speech to Congress on January 6, 1941:
We look forward to a world founded upon four essential human freedoms. The first is freedom of speech and expression--everywhere in the world. The second is freedom of every person to worship God in his own way-- everywhere in the world. The third is freedom from want . . . everywhere in the world. The fourth is freedom from fear . . . anywhere in the world.

:(
 
What some people fail to understand is that a Pillar of American Freedoms is your privacy in your home. Your home is not the corner bar; it is not a public street.

This ruling goes a long way toward relegating Your home no different than the security line at a New York subway. You have no no expectation of privacy in your own home if The State develops an interest in you; Worse yet, Nobody in your family has any expectation of privacy if Anybody in your family raises enough suspicion that a "warrant" is issued. Your wife, your kids, your aging parents...there are no "innocent bystanders" in the War on [Fill in the Blank]; Your entire household is subject to the same treatment as the accused law breaker; and a "Warrant" does not guarantee that there is even enough evidence to charge you with a crime! Think about that.

As to the instant case of this highly dangerous drug dealer (with half a day's personal stash of crack in his pocket)....God Forbid we might offer the suggestion that an entire Tac Team be replaced by a couple of plain clothes on stakeout. Anybody ever suggest it might be better all around to take the little cretin on the sidewalk where he's in sight the entire time; rather than a Dynamic Entry where you have to crash and break things just to get an eyeball on him?

And in these instances, how do the LEO's know the bad guy is in the house in the first place? Kinda have to see him walk in dontcha?

I'm all for keeping our streets AND our Cops safe. Adrenalin rushin' Dynamic Entires serve neither purpose when they become the rule rather than the exception. When SCOTUS begins encouraging the practice it's time to talk about just how far we've come.
Rich
 
Rich,
Please back up and re-read my posts. You're responding in a very argumentative manner and I'm not arguing with you.

I will say that I don't like the idea of cops busting down my door without announcing themselves...folks might get shot.
All I'm asking (asking, not saying) is:
How is not knocking a violation of the BoR?
The examples you cited are all specifically (or at least reasonably) covered by the BoR. I don't see anything there referencing this.
So please, just pretend that I'm honestly just curious (which I am) and just explain it to me.
 
You're responding in a very argumentative manner and I'm not arguing with you.
Beg pardon? There was no anger in my response; though I'm never certain how to reply to someone who begins with a misunderstanding of the basic intent of the Bill of Rights.

The test is NOT whether the Constitution specifically prohibits such government act; it's whether the Document authorizes. If it does not authorize the action, the onus is on the State to demonstrate that it does not violate the Bill of Rights.

There's nothing in the Bill of Rights that specifically proscribes the Federal Government from muzzling "Hate Speech", registering firarms, renting a room in your home, strip searching suspicious characters in subways or forcing you to self incrminate either. That was my answer to you.

But, on balance, I'd say that breaking in on my family, unannounced, to serve a search or arrest warrant is a violation of the intent of the words:
The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated

Note the priority the Founders gave to your "home"...following only upon your very person in importance. What on earth is "reasonable" about breaking into homes, unannounced, when other means are available and probably safer to all concerned. Isn't that how Waco got started? It was service for warrant on a $300 tax stamp.
Rich
 
Tucson Arz. paper article worse

An article in the paper there today talked about the October Surprise of confiscating weapons from people who are likely to resist when the govt comes around to take every body's guns later. Look it up. So they don't need warrants to come take your guns. Sounds like they will be putting the ones doing the actual work in harms way. I would hate to have that job. So they come get you in the night like in Russia. Well the Supreme court is no longer upholding their oaths of office to defend the constitution. So their power is null and void. Time to enhance the perimeter. Yes it will be better if you can get away from the herding pens [cities]. Everybody I know is getting out to the wilderness some where.Time to invest in precious metal. Time for a change. time for a line in the sand.
 
Rich,
I'm never certain how to reply to someone who begins with a misunderstanding of the basic intent of the Bill of Rights.
Humor me. Just lay it all out.

As I understand it, you're saying that the Constitution is there as a brake on government authority (I agree fully) and that we have more rights than those specifically mentioned (again, I agree fully). If there's anybody on this board that gets that, it's me.
I'm not happy with the idea of unannounced entry. Too much of a likelihood of miscommunication and needless death. I'm not against you on this. *But* constitutionally speaking, what's the difference between yelling "POLICE", crashing my door, and shooting me in the forehead and doing the same without yelling "POLICE"?

What I'm asking for is a specific, detached, unemotional, rational, *legal* argument supporting the position that not yelling "POLICE" is unreasonable.
 
I first saw this thread when I was home for lunch. Went to the SCOTUS site, downloaded the opinion. Got home from work and began reading. I am aghast!
Wildalaska said:
Lot of door busting going down in the 1920s
Yeah, even though Weeks said it was a no-no... Read on.

The Fourth amendment is essentially trashed. The only thing that has kept the police from simply bashing your door down, has been that the evidence would be suppressed - known since Mapp as the exclusionary rule.

The Court is now saying that suppressing the evidence is too harsh a penalty. That criminal and/or civil charges would suffice to keep them knocking and announcing.

The problem is that very few criminal charges have ever been brought and none have been successfully prosecuted. Civil suit? Three or four people have gone that route and were awarded $1 for their trouble. So what other remedy is available? The answer is none.

The Court in Mapp concluded that the only viable remedy was to deter police/prosecutorial misconduct by excluding the evidence entirely.

If there is no harsh penalty, what is gonna keep them from busting down the door?

There is no precedent for this ruling. On the contrary, there is ample precedent for knocking and announcing, going back almost a century, to 1914: Weeks v. United States, 232 U. S. 383 (1914). This was the case that formulated the exclusionary principle. Weeks used Boyd v. United States, 116 U. S. 616 (1886). In this seminal Fourth Amendment case, decided 120 years ago, the Court wrote, in frequently quoted language, that the Fourth Amendment’s prohibitions apply:
"to all invasions on the part of the government and its employés of the sanctity of a man’s home and the privacies of life. It is not the breaking of his doors, and the rummaging of his drawers, that constitutes the essence of the offence; but it is the invasion of his indefeasible right of personal security, personal liberty and private property.” Id., at 630.
Shall we go back to English Common Law? Semayne's Case (1603), the Court of King's Bench explained, "the law [...] abhors the destruction or breaking of any house (which is for the habitation and safety of man) by which great damage and inconvenience might ensue to the party, when no default is in him." So it appears that part of the reason for knock-and-announce is for the prevention of destruction of private property! Researching this further reveals that the sanctity of the home and hearth were such, that the King's men would knock, announce themselves, their purpose and their authority. They were permitted entry only if denied. And upon warrant of the King, if no one was at home.

GoSlash, do you begin to see the 4th amendment violation? Moving on...

United States v. Calandara, 414 U.S. 338 (1974),"The purpose of the exclusionary rule is not to redress the injury to the privacy of the search victim." On the contrary, "the prime purpose of the rule, if not the sole one, is to deter future unlawful police conduct," United States v. Janis, 428 U.S. 433 (1976)

So now there is no deterrance to unlawful conduct. Which in and of itself, renders all warrants to be (for all practicable purposes) no-knock warrants. Sorry to say, this turns 120 years of constitutional precedent on its ear, as this ruling was taken directly from thin air.
 
What I'm asking for is a specific, detached, unemotional, rational, *legal* argument supporting the position that not yelling "POLICE" is unreasonable.
Again, I provided you "specific, detached, unemotional, rational, *legal* argument".

- Specific: I quoted the Fourth Amendment to the Constitution of the United States of America.
- Detached: I did it without faulting the LEO's
- Unemotional: You misread passion for emotion; when it comes to what this Nation stands for, I'm taken aback by any man who is not passionate.
- Rational: I provided specific examples in accordance with your stated logic to demonstrate the absurdity of the conclusion.
- Legal: I referenced the purpose of the Constitution and BoR (to Affirm Broad Citizen Freedoms, not to Guarantee Broad State Powers)

I know not how to further answer you; any more than I could answer the repeated question of, "But why, Daddy?". You're not a child, GS; you're grown. It's time to take positions, one way or another; there's no answers to "But why?" here at TFL. The Bill of Rights needs no explanation; only actions that diminish those rights have obligation to explanation.
Rich
 
So now there is no deterrance to unlawful conduct. Which in and of itself, renders all warrants to be (for all practicable purposes) no-knock warrants. Sorry to say, this turns 120 years of constitutional precedent on its ear, as this ruling was taken directly from thin air.

Im gonna find the time to read it before i respond

So they come get you in the night like in Russia. Well the Supreme court is no longer upholding their oaths of office to defend the constitution. So their power is null and void. Time to enhance the perimeter. Yes it will be better if you can get away from the herding pens [cities]. Everybody I know is getting out to the wilderness some where.Time to invest in precious metal. Time for a change. time for a line in the sand.

gee and we were doing so well in this discussion :rolleyes:

WildgunhatofflegalhatonAlaska
 
I would like to point out to those who would say or ask things like:

"Where in the 4A does it say 'knock & announce' is required?"

and

"It's *already* reasonable per se once a warrant is obtained; therefore no knock & announce is needed",

You may be (are probably) missing or not fully understanding a fundamental notion of constitutional law. The documents (Const., BOR) say what they say. In some cases, the words are ambiguous and/or open to differing interpretations - the 4A is like this by use of the term "reasonable". [incidentally, the 2A is far less open to differing interpretations]. So it is the job of the SCOTUS, and has been since Marbury vs. Madison, to determine what the words mean - to flesh them out - to provide an entire body of law, which is precedent as to exactly what they mean [incidentally, the scotus has abdicated its duty in the case of the 2A - fortunately they have not abdicated the duty on the 4A - there are thousands of cases on it]. So, in the case of the 4A that uses the word reasonable - we have many many many cases that tell us what the court says is or is not reasonable under circumstance X, Y, or Z, or combinations thereof. Whether you agree or not, this precedent is the law, at least until such time as the SCOTUS reverses itself. Some circumstances have been covered by clear precedent; some have not. One circumstance which HAS been clearly covered is WHETHER OR NOT THE POLICE MUST KNOCK AND ANNOUNCE when executing a search warrant. It has already been decided, time and time again, that yes, in order to be "reasonable", the police must knock and announce before serving the warrant. In this case, they did not; they announced, but did not knock. And the facts are undisputed about this. So the SCOTUS has already decided that the LAW IS that any search, with a warrant, which is not preceded by a knock & announce, is a per se unreasonable violation. So the ONLY question that remains in the case is the appropriate REMEDY for this admitted violation. The traditional remedy (which granted, has not ALWAYS been with us, but has for many decades) is SUPPRESSION of the fruit of the unreasonable search - suppression or exclusion of the evidence found, in the case against the defendant at trial. Clearly, as Rich eloquently points out, the exception to the exclusionary (suppression) rule, the inevitable discovery doctrine, it does not apply here, because the perp would probably have flushed it. So the only way to reach the result they did of upholding the conviction is to throw out the exclusionary rule by creating a multi-layered scheme of police misconduct, and thus categorizing stuff in essence, as either "really bad", in which case the exclusionary rule would still apply (thank goodness), or "just kinda bad", in which case, "so what" - we ain't gonna do nothing to reverse the conviction - there is no real meaningful repurcussion for the violation, and thus no incentive for police to stop the misconduct. Here, they reach the idea of just kinda bad, apparently through a convoluted logic along the lines of "well, because there was actually a warrant, it wasn't as bad as normal 4A violations", or some such, nearly as I can tell. And unfortunately, but not unexpectedly, they do NOT make clear when a just kinda bad violation would turn into a really bad one, warranting the exclusionary rule - what if they had not even waited 3-5 seconds, but gone in immediately upon announcing? Would that warrant the exclusionary rule? We don't know. What if they had not announced at all, let alone knock? Would that have warranted the exlusionary rule? We don't know, because they decided basically nothing, except that they are throwing out the exclusionary rule *sometimes* in cases of warrant-present searches. But they didn't give us any real test or guidelines, so whoever said muddy the waters further is right. Without the exlusionary rule, all is lost ultimately, so we can only hope that that don't use this as a foundation to further make inroads to the all-important exclusionary rule. Without repercussions, obviously the police will keep doing their wrongful conduct. In reality, the result reached in this particular case is because this particular defendant is a scumbag, and the SCOTUS members (5 of them) are political whores. And of course they give lip service to the ridiculous alternate remedies that WON'T actually cause the police to stop their violations of law, such as a civil lawsuit against them.

It would be a horse of a WHOLE nuther color if they has said "well, we are going to reverse ourselves and say that ANY warrant search in which police presence is announced, regardless of a knock, is per se reasonable, and all other precedent to the contrary is overruled". But they didn't say that, they said yes, we're following precedent - this is a bad entry, but we're gonna sometimes sorta-kinda throw out the exlusionary rule, and we'll let you know really when that is only the next time someone appeals and we happen to grant cert, and even then we'll probably still be pretty vague. But at least you know at present that waiting 3-5 seconds at least before busting down the door will prevent the exclusionary rule. But you're still bad - so slap yourself on the wrist, you bad cops! No other punishment though.

Rich and leadcounsel speak wisely. The whole reason for this erosion of our rights are the ridiculous farces of the WOD, and to a lesser extent, the WOT, to use the .gov's phrases.
 
Agreed, statistically how often does [a no-knock] happen, especially to Joe Q Public
I think a better question is, "How often are there no-knocks on innocents and non-violent criminals, compared with the frequency of home invasions by criminals?"
 
After reading over everything posted so far, I will have to agree that I am against the NO KNOCK warrant simply because if they are at my door and it happens to be the wrong door, I don't want to be responsible for killing a cop.
BUT I can understand why this ruling was made because of the flush factor. The argument was made "why did they not pick him up on the street and why was the perp not surveiled". Well he probably was surveiled and it was most likely decided that the only place to get their hands on the evidence was from inside his home. I also have to say that I live in a small town and know several Sheriff and police dept officers personally so I doubt that the wrong door syndrome happens much if at all around here, maybe in a larger city it is a more common accurance. Can anybody come up with any statistics showing the TRUE numbers of wrongfully carried out warrants??
 
Well he probably was surveiled and it was most likely decided that the only place to get their hands on the evidence was from inside his home.
Oh, you mean the five cleverly hidden crack rocks in his pocket? How do you think they got into his home in the first place? Teleportation? I think not. I think he probably walked down the street and carried them back home....sometimes twice daily.

But that is not the point. Once again, we see the error of judging a SCOTUS case by the standard of "this guy probably had it coming"; once again, we see the mistake of viewing a SCOTUS ruling as nothing more than a Circuit Court verdict. But SCOTUS rulings are VERY MUCH more than that; they become the Law of the Land; and todays' rulings will affect you and your childrens' children for generations. You can possibly defend this ruling yet oppose National Firearms Registration as some sort of "infringement"? Go figure.

As Antipitas so perfectly pointed out, this ruling states that you have no practical recourse should the next sheriff that you know so personally wish to know you just a little better.

Can anybody come up with any statistics showing the TRUE numbers of wrongfully carried out warrants??
Spoken as though you've stumbled onto the very nub of the issue. What on earth does it matter? Can you show me the true numbers of lawful gun owners who would be denied firearms by a National Gun Registry? The numbers of law abiding citizens who would be jailed or killed should we simply decide to curb certain types of speech? The number of innocent men who would go to the gallows if we only demanded that the Guilty self incriminate on pain of death.

Your logic borders on Medieval, Contender.
Rich
 
So the work of the police in this situation should be null and void because they didn't knock on the door???:rolleyes: You say my mindset is medieval??
 
Back
Top