...just a loaf of bread...

YIKES, this thread is somewhat disturbing. Condition White, Condition Yellow....man some of you cats take the CCW thing serious don't you? :) I believe in LEGAL CCW and love guns, but dang!


Wild you are so RIGHT alot of Rambo Wannabes who would piss thier pants in the first firefight they would get in. They all want to save the world and taste combat. Well i have drank from that cup and i would do it again in a minute but my hope is to never have to pull a trigger on a person again.
Click to expand...


Amen, Amen!! Having been a LEO for far too many years and having been involved in a fatal shootout during that career, something that in "real life" is not fun even when completely justified. Some of the folks (not pointing fingers at ANYONE in this thread, just making a statement in general) that carry on about carrying and badguys and life or death on the streets scare the crap outta me worse than any shuckin and jivin bad guy ever did. Alot of the time too these type guys have never faced a true life or death situation or bad guy, expect those paper ones on the range and yes if they ever do many of them's pants would be wet. But they sure do shoot the eyes outta that paper target. :)
 
Wild,

I've never made it above crown prince for any space work. Even that time in the 90's when I followed Phish. :D Good times they tell me.

B
 
Dead is dead
Click to expand...


I'll give you some comfort then. According to the FBI your violent crime rate in Madison is one of the lowest in the entire country. In 2005 there were on TWO (2) MURDERS and the FBI reports contain a population area for Madison 221,000. Given that 221,000 pop area the AVERAGE Murder rate for that size area is TWENTY-EIGHT (28) murders per year. The city I retired from law enforcement had a pop of around 360,000 and on a very off year we averaged 40 Murders and we were considered a low violent crime rate city then. Shoot (pun intended) most US towns with popoulations of only 15,000 average 2 murders per year. So at only 2 I think the trip for ice cream was safe even in "condition white".

With those low crime rates I bet those shuckin and jivin teens were probably music majors instead of the inferred gang bangers. :)


FBI Crime Rates
Type 2005 Madison Crime Index
Madison Violent Crimes:
Madison Murders: 2

 Based on the final 2005 FBI Crime Reports.
 Results are tabulated using the Madison crime collection area population of 221,419.
 Madison crime collection population may not match US Census data. Population is based on the agencies participating in the reporting.
 2006 Madison crime stats will be available October 2007.
 
a bunch of kids on a street corner listening to some tunes are a reason to go to condition Bravo Xray 37!!!!!! (that means arm the nukes and make ready to deploy them) Kids on a street corner and tunes? Not that many years ago i was one of them. Kids cant spend all thier time in church. In the town where i lived there was a parking lot that the kids used to hang at and it was right on the main drag. Well alot of people were terified of them and wanted to run them to the gallows. I used to walk home from work every night and would stop and talk to them. They were good kids just playing some tunes and looking for girls and the girls looking for guys. Harmless. I know not everyone is harmless but to be honest i would rather face a gun one night unarmed that go through life paranoid and looking at the bad side of life and being all wound up about the what ifs. Hell what if the sky falls?? i will use caution and good judgment and enjoy my life. Being a Marine maybe i am just being a "jar head". in my opinion the bigger threat to CCW is not the liberals its that one day a CCW Rambo wannabe is going to go postal on a group of innocent people who in his paranoid mind are a threat and kill a few people and put gas on the fire of the anti gun crowd. Wild Alaska i think you are right on!
 
Starsky said:
your violent crime rate in Madison is one of the lowest in the entire country
Click to expand...

I understand your perspective. However, just as one member here likened 'real crime' to areas like Philly, it's kind of a 'so what' statistic if you're the one who gets killed.

For example, what would you say if some one like Diane Feinstein pushed for total personal disarmament because "crime statistics in all of the USA are lower than in Tikrit."

The folks in my area are quite concerned. This increase isn't from wannabees. It's from second-rate 'bangers who get displaced from Chicago. We get their welfare cast-offs, and now we get 'bangers opening new drug areas and making their bones.

Another running shooting war was played out last night. The police found the area, littered with spent brass.

Personally, I don't feel like putting my head in the sand until someone really close to me gets shot while in condition white. That's like putting up a warning sign after a 'real death' takes place.

Let me put it to you this way. Lots of you might criticize what you read here.

To that I say, "Well, turn in your CCW license. After all, you didn't need it last night, because you didn't get killed."

And the smug attitude about 'you needing it more than I do' is just elitist. If you believe you're in more danger, then an intelligent man would move.
 
Well it appears that we have two mindsets here that just won't budge.

This could have been an extremely beneficial discussion. I see a wealth of merit from several angles.
However... Instead of taking a members' personal experience and logically evaluating it and turning it into a positive tactical discussion it has de-evolved into yet another sophmoric exercise in self-righteous finger pointing.
The remarks of some folks that I once held in high esteem have splattered urine stains over the entire proceeding.
My gosh people you'd think this was the DU and not the Tactics and Training area of a pro-firearms forum. A smart anti would have a field day with this thread.


Tourist, thank you for your insights. I see positives and negatives in your original experience, but it's good that you took an everyday event and turned it into a learning experience. That's how you evolve. I am sure it was helpful to many others as well.
(If you'd like to discuss it in private feel free to PM me.)
But you must realize that some people just don't get it and never will.
You cannot educate a mind that already knows it all.
Just remember to practice what's right for you. May you continue to grow and be safe.


This embarassment has reminded me of some very wise observations from folks I still hold in high regard;

It would appear that for some, no explanation is required... for others, no explanation will do.
Baba Louie THR 09/29/03

Even if the other person is absolutely and completely WRONG, they've usually got a decently thought-out argument to back up their clueless posts.
M.Irwin TFL 07-12-2001
 
I have trouble believing that this topic generated any argument at all. I guess we are beyond the point of being able to make our own minds up on this issue?

Unsubscribing from this one.
 
invssgt said:
generated any argument
Click to expand...

I didn't think it would generate any argument at all. Since we're the good guys, and "we" claim (or infer) that personal safety and firearms are the core beliefs, I figured I'd get some debate on what I should have done.

I figured I'd be teased ('unarmed biker in basketball shorts'), but I hoped there would be some serious discussion of real urban scenarios, being in white, being unarmed or without pepper-spray and some creative thoughts.

I never imagined criticism from folks supposedly all on the same side.

In fact, this "you don't need guns in Madison" folly smells a lot like the rhetoric we hear constantly from our liberal governor, Jim Doyle.

If you really want to stir the pot, let's pass legislation called "The Madison Model."

If Madison is called a zone of safety, even by guys with CCW permits, then we have bridged the gap between gun owners and the gun control crowd. It should be easy to ascertain what our local murder rate is per 100,000 using the FBI's own Uniform Crime Statistics.

Using that number, if your local crime rate drops to 'The Madison Rate,' then all of your CCW permits are invalid until the crime rate in your area once again increases.

I'm sure some of you might ask, "But Tourist, what are we supposed to do in the mean time without our guns? There is still some level of crime?"

To those people I suggest the following. Don't ever go to any place, ever, where there has been or is currently a drug market.

"But Tourist, that one-third of my city's downtown area!" Tough nuggies, buddy. If I get accused of being Rambo, so do you.

"But Toursit, what if I'm one of the first few killed while the CCW licenses are invalid?" Again, tough nuggies. Dead is dead, even in a statistically low crime area. Playing by the numbers, your life has really no nationally important meaning in overall safety.

"But Tourist, the bad guys still have guns!" Well, so does your local law enforcement. Do what we who live inside "The Madison Model" are admonished to do. That is, call 9-1-1 and keep your knees together.

Oh, and don't ever wear basketball shorts after dark. It riles the elite mall ninjas...
 
kgpcr wrote:

I know not everyone is harmless but to be honest i would rather face a gun one night unarmed that go through life paranoid and looking at the bad side of life and being all wound up about the what ifs.
Click to expand...

:eek: You would rather face a gun unarmed. than take the simple precaution that a CCW affords you? Do you even realize how that statement sounds? No sane person would want a gun shoved in their face, with no way to defend themselves. Lets just hope you never get your wish, for your sake.

Tourist. Like Bluesbear said, some people will never get it. The thing that scares me the most, on a pro-gun forum, is how many people sound suspiciously like anti's with their arguments and reasoning.....

This is the very LAST place you would ever think of being treated this way, torn apart and covered in tinfoil because you forgot your gun and felt uneasy. If that makes us rambos, then so be it. If I remember right, rambo is the only guy left alive at the end. :D
 
:rolleyes: ‘Paranoia: A perfect perception of that reality which is always there, waiting, behind a benevolent, 'social mask’.

In 1990 my home was invaded, bright and early, on a Sunday morning. The guy was as big as he was filthy dirty; I was 3 days out of the hospital; and, he had me cold! I, even, started to say my prayers; but, then, my Pit Bull growled from the top of the stairs, and reminded me that I owned two well-trained guard dogs. (Reminded the home invader, too!) :D

In 1997 my wife sent me to the store around 9:30 pm because she ran out of milk while making Thanksgiving cookies. I was driving a brand new Chevy Blazer, complete with all the eye candy you might expect. As I walked back to my vehicle I heard very soft footsteps coming up, quickly, behind me. I turned my strong side away from the sound and looked over my support shoulder to see a swarthy male taking very long steps as he came running up behind me. I didn’t wait; I stepped toward him and snapped open a large CRKT folder that I kept hidden behind my leg.

In the silence of that darkened parking lot the snap sounded loud enough to be a gunshot. The guy actually froze in mid-stride; and there we stood, staring at each other for what seemed like an eternity. All of a sudden he got stupid; he took his hands out of his jacket pockets and goofily asked me if I were, ‘Dominic’? I just stared him down while I shook my head; ‘No!’ He got even dumber and started to back up.

When I realized that the fight was out of him, I let him increase the distance between us. Still, I’ll always wonder what he might have done if he’d realized I was holding a knife instead of a gun? That was the last time I, ever, went anywhere without at least one gun.

As for my wife? Even though she had a CCW permit, she refused to carry for more than ten years. (She's a very gentle person.) ;) Then, one evening during the Fall of 2005, two gangbangers attempted to steal her new car. She did everything completely completely wrong; but, she did manage to jump into the car, ran over one guy's foot, and got away!

She came home that evening an hour late, quite frazzled, and entered the house with the remark; 'The spirit of my recently departed mother just saved my life!' Say, 'What!' :eek:

(Yeah, I know; but you need to understand; ‘The shoemaker’s children always go barefoot!)

Finally, she asked me to give her a gun and the training to go along with it. (Something she'd steadfastly resisted for a very long time!) ;) When she didn’t like anything she handled in the gun safe; I took her to the local sport shop and steered her into a nice Ruger SP-101. To my absolute surprise, she has been practicing diligently and never leaves home without her, 'Ruggie' and two speedloaders!

Ain’t, ‘paranoia’ a wonderful thing! :p
 
Last edited:
I'm with you on this one, Derius_T.

All of you who claim to not "live the paranoid life", I must ask: why is what I have always considered my being prudent all of a sudden considered paranoia? Why is the desire to make oneself a hard target enough to make one the object ridicule? So far, my so-called 'paranoia' hasnt made me an unhappy person!
 
Jesus, you last 3 posters act as if the OP had barely gotten out of the parking lot alive.
Nightwatchman, you experiences warrant your nature of being much more alert. You weren't a victim of the "shucking and jiving crew" but of something much worse.
As far as anyone who like myself thinks the OP is paranoid and as such is being labeled anti??? that is funny. More like being a realist and not living in a video game world. In reality, it is the over-zealous, paranoid, itchy trigger finger people who are much worse for the 2A cause.
You would rather face a gun unarmed. than take the simple precaution that a CCW affords you? Do you even realize how that statement sounds? No sane person would want a gun shoved in their face, with no way to defend themselves. Lets just hope you never get your wish, for your sake.
Click to expand...
I have actually had a gun pulled on me a few times before and my weapon was my mind even though I had a firearm on me. You see, no matter what world you live in Derius, that firearm can either kill or get you killed. If I would have chosen to pull my firearm in 2 specific cases because of having been drawn down on, then I'd be dead. My firearm did not prove to be a precaution as you state. At other times, my firearms did prove to be a precaution and a tool. The way you perceive things is sometimes not the real world.
 
... In reality, it is the over-zealous, paranoid, itchy trigger finger people who are much worse for the 2A cause.

I have actually had a gun pulled on me a few times before and my weapon was my mind even though I had a firearm on me. You see, no matter what world you live in Derius, that firearm can either kill or get you killed. If I would have chosen to pull my firearm in 2 specific cases because of having been drawn down on, then I'd be dead. My firearm did not prove to be a precaution as you state. At other times, my firearms did prove to be a precaution and a tool. The way you perceive things is sometimes not the real world.
Click to expand...

It took me a moment or two to appreciate the extraordinary wisdom in the above remarks. That is a very savvy post! I'm sitting here thinking about one outstanding example of this sort of, 'itchy trigger finger' behavior; but I don't feel like starting an argument this morning, so I won't be specific.

Very well said, though! ;)
 
Night Watchman said:
'itchy trigger finger' behavior
Click to expand...

No one is proffering this as a good idea. Certainly not Derius, and I never intended that guise in the original post.

All of the serious posters here have mentioned increased vigilence or "condition yellow" as a very important aspect of safety. Perhaps it is the important aspect.

As you might recall, I described myself as 'white' or oblivious or unfocused. It was the loud music that startled me.

As we also pointed out, the best gun or knife in the world would not have helped me while in that mind-frame.

Then, of course, we have the supposed good guys, warm at home with their CCW licenses, opining that no one else really has a need for the options they enjoy.

Well, I just thought of something. Those guys might want to vacation in Wisconsin. Greating hunting and fishing, beautiful places to camp, and the Interstate Highway to Sturgis crosses right through the middle of my home state.

And guess what. Not only to do we not have provisions for CCW carry, but we have no reciprocity agreements with any state.

That means your cute little gun, and perhaps your pepper-spray, might be locked in the trunk of your car, unloaded and useless.

Of course, you are welcomed to walk around in any urban area as my guest--after dark...
 
Originally Posted By The Tourist -
No one is proffering this as a good idea. Certainly not Derius, and I never intended that guise in the original post.
Click to expand...

:confused: I know! Apparently you failed to notice; but, neither did I.

Originally Posted By The Tourist -
All of the serious posters here have mentioned increased vigilence or "condition yellow" as a very important aspect of safety. Perhaps it is the important aspect.
Click to expand...

:confused: Didn't like my second post, huh. Exactly how do you imagine that I've played increased awareness down?

By the way - and you can trust me on this - 'Condition Yellow' isn't THE most important aspect of personal safety. 'Intelligence', 'prior knowledge', or 'anticipation' are all far superior to simply being aware. Perhaps THIS is where (or how) you actually screwed up?

Like I said: Trust me! I'm pretty sure I'm, 'on the money' here. ;)
 
I'm sorry that I'm not as brave as a lot of the people. I really am. I just can't be that brave. It's not in me. So I lock my doors, I make sure my widows are closed and locked when I go to bed, I keep my cash in the bank, I have a smoke detector, I wear my seat belt, I own a first aid kit and have taken first aid classes, I carry a knife, I carry pepper spray, and I carry a gun. I'm such a coward. I don't know how I look at myself in the mirror anymore. It's not like anything bad is ever going to happen to me. That guy who broke into my house assualted my grandfather, not me. The guy who raped my girlfriend hurt her, not me. All the people who were murdered within ten miles of my home this year are the dead ones. Not me. Why should I worry?
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top