Jeff Cooper's Scout rifle

I'm neither pro- nor anti-. What would be the point? He's dead now anyway.

I had never heard of some of the things mentioned earlier, like an anti-piracy rifle, which would have been ahead of its time, I imagine, in a manner of speaking. Judging from his writings, he sounded a little hard in some of his views, yet it still sounded like he had a sense of humor. I rather liked some of the names he came up with for some of his rifles. Still, it was all just his own opinion, although many other embraced the idea.

While he mentioned both stripper clips and magazine cut-offs, the Scout Rifle as it appeared actually used a detachable magazine and it had, I'm pretty sure (this is all strictly from memory) it had a provision for an extra magazine in the buttstock. Likewise, I think it had a folding bipod, something I don't recall anyone making much of a deal about, not like the sling, anyway.

If he was of an earlier era, as some of us living today are, there were others in the past who would not have entirely agreed on everything about the scout rifle (that is, The Scout Rifle) as he envisioned it. For one thing, lightness is usually desirable but sometimes not. The irony here is that, while he may have thought of his creation as the ultimate, others might see it as a compromise. Naturally everything is to some extent and the difference is in what one finds important. One person's essential feature is another person's unnecessary extra and maybe even a headache. Whatever else you might have thought of it, it would have to be something to be proud to possess. Cooper was.
 
Ike666, you are right. You asked about the rifle and the discussion was about Cooper for the most part. I have been 'mod slapped' for lesser transgressions.
Actually, I have often wondered why most scopes require almost eyeball touching lens eye relief. An intermediate eye relief scope or a variable eye relief makes much more sense, IMHO. A heavy recoiling rifle can do damage to the eye or face.
I never heard of the Ruger Frontier. Will have to do some research on it if still made.
 
I never heard of the Ruger Frontier. Will have to do some research on it if still made.
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They quit making it last year I believe. Some still floating around on GunBroker though....

The gun came with the forward rib mounted on the barrel, and also came with a weaver rail that mounts forward on the barrel too. And ruger includes rings with their rifles as well.

here's some info on the Frontier:

http://www.shootingtimes.com/longgun_reviews/77_062405/
http://www.gunblast.com/Ruger_FrontierRifle.htm
http://www.gunsandammo.com/content/ruger-m77-mk-ii-frontier
 
The concept was a good one, but the execution, by those few who have made them only used part of Cooper's ideas.

The Scout rifle was to be in a "serious" caliber, .308 Win intended as commonality with GI ammo, one meter long and 2kg in weight (or are close as could be achieved), the mag cutoff, onboard ammo, ching sling, integeral bipod, ghost ring sights and a forward mounted low power scope (if used) were part of it. Some makers adopted some features, others, used others, nobody put them all together, so far.

And for good reason, the Scout rifle was an excellent arm for a military scout, except for the fact that by the time Cooper was writing about the idea, nobody's military was using scouts in a way that Cooper's rifle would have been a significant benefit.

Makers of scout rifles are making sporting arms (because the military has no interest in buying them), and so, only those features that appeal most to the civilian buying public are used.

Cooper may not have been right on everything, but he wasn't wrong about everything, either. I always liked his writing, he pulled no punches about his opinions.

Most of the people who complain about how flawed Cooper's scout rifle concept is don't really understand the original intent. They focus on how it isn't suitable for military scouts (today), doesn't hold enough ammo, etc.

The Scout (in Cooper's ideal) didn't fight. A suitable combat rifle wasn't needed. If a scout gets in a firefight, he screwed up. Some kind of rifle was needed, because everybody screws up, and/or sometimes the other guys just get lucky. The scout rifle was meant to be able to dis-engage with, if necessary, not to fight it out.

No autoloader rifle (and remember the era when the concept was formed) could make size and weight (or even close) and fire a cartridge of the power level desired. And since firepower was not a concern, a bolt gun was the best option. The scout rifle was intended to be carried a lot, and used only a little. But since when it was used, it needed to be a good as it could be, the caliber and sights were important. Again, remember the era, and the basic concept, that a single well delivered shot (or two) was better than a fusilade of firepower, for a scout.

When you have a squad or a platoon for back-up, when your job is to hold ground, or take theirs, carrying a weapon with a large ammo capacity makes good sense. When your job is to sneak and see, its just extra dead weight. Drawing attention with suppressive firepower (particularly when you don't have the resources to keep it up) is a very BAD idea. Not having a rifle that will do that means you won't be tempted. Today, we think about "well, I need the firepower, in case I have to keep their heads down" alot more than they used to. In combat, we have learned the value of suppressive firepower, but the scout rifle wasn't intended for combat.

A superbly designed tool is a superbly designed tool. The fact that we choose not to have a use for it detracts nothing from the design.

A good sword is a good sword. The fact that nobody carries one today doesn't make it a bad sword, just a good tool that we no longer have a common use for.
 
Scout scopes made sense when fast reloading meant stripper or on-bloc clip. Both don't work well with over-the-action scopes.
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Agreed and most people forget this. It's the sole reason the scope is mounted that far forward. The rifle was designed to fire "easily-obtained" military ammo and be recharged rapidly with a stripper clip. This was from the days of bolt-guns with blind box magazines.

How many rifles do you see today with stripper clip guides? Outside a C&R collection or a high power match (many Match Rifle class shooters still have Model 70s and 700s with milled in or bolt on clip guides) I haven't seen very many.

In fact, a lot of bolt guns now have detachable box magazines. Savage's Model 10 FCM scout did. Many Savage hunting rifles do. AICS systems are available.

I would argue that unless you're using a Model 1894 Winchester, a scout scope is an obsolete idea and people are purchasing them for looks, forgetting the original purpose.
 
I find that I am quicker on target with the scout set-up, and don't get "lost in the scope" ..... peripheral vision is maintained.
 
The scout is a No. 5 Jungle Carbine with a little less pork and a forward scope. But the Jungle Carbine was out dated for battlefield work a half century ago. My main issue is that some still think they can sell em for 1000's of dollars. The scout seem's like it's more suited for a policework than anything else. Not a low rate of fire, not a high rate either. Not for multiple targets but for a seelct few. Not sniper accurate but not a dog either with it optics. I can imagine the LAPD would of liked to of had a few in their trunks about the time the Hollywood shootout happened. Cooper either hit the mark too late for it might of been a great idea in WWII or he missed the mark entirely. All IMO of coarse.
 
Picked up this thread late.

I like the Scout rifle concept enough that in 2000 when a cheap 7.62mm NATO K98 action and barrel in good condition came my way I built one. It works for me and the process was a lot of fun. I'm not a soldier nor a weapon carrying policeman, and I built it secure in the knowledge that the money spent would not be an investment.
I still have it, it is one of my favourites and I hope to hunt with it one day. I read a lot of Cooper and thought some of his ideas made sense. I once wrote to him about a comment he made which seemed to me one sided and he sent me a very civil reply.
I did not understand his thinking as to why a single man in indian country would be best served by a low capacity bolt action if he was compromised. It seems to me that if one has to move fast and shoot their way out of trouble, one would be best served by some thing at least semi automatic, light weight with light weight ammunition, and possibly a grenade launcher as well. But as I say, not being a soldier I am happy to be corrected by anyone who is.
But with regard to this point, other posters here take the view that his thinking was relevant to pre WWII, which makes some sense.
Reading these forums, the forward mounted low powered scope seems to be becoming popular with those with surplus rifles who want to improve their rifles perfomance, but not change the rifles as issued spec. I have a 7.92mm K.98 with an excellent S&K mount and a cheap Nikko LER scope that works very well.
Cooper did write, sometimes quite condescendingly about the Scout rifle being the best thing since sliced bread, which it isn't, though he did say that specialist applications are best served by specialist rifles. For some applications the Scout rifle, I believe, is a good choice.
 
Aside from weaponry, a scout's main deal is to see yet not be seen. A scout does sneaky-snaking, solo. Much like a still-hunting deer hunter. This isn't common in today's world of group-think. Scouting is not the same as patrolling.

So, if somehow discovered by mischance, a quick aimed shot or two and then practice being elsewhere at a high rate of speed. And, after all, SHTF and all that stuff is nothing but a variant on guerilla-style fighting.

I don't see Cooper's ideas as solely pre-WW II. They're going on right now, worldwide, albeit not with scout rifles.
 
Here is another factory scout http://savagearms.com/firearms/model/10FCM SCOUT

I understand the idea. If you read Coopers criteria he was very flexible in his concept. Most folks think it must have a forward scope mount. Cooper was actually of the opinion that optics were optional and an iron sighted rifle was just fine. He has stated that a standard levergun in 30-30 was pretty close to his concept.

For me personally I find that a low powered scope mounted conventionally is just as fast as the scout scope. I shoot all scopes with both eyes open anyway. A conventionally mounted scope in QD mounts with back up irons would work just fine in my opinion.
 
I always thought this was a sound concept, and if the price/availablilty of the Steyr Scout were more in my range I would have one. I held one at a gun show many years ago and it seemed like a compact and light weight package that could deliver .308 quickly out to respectable ranges and still be 'handy'. I think the 'quickly' part was the most important part to Cooper.
 
I had a nice shooting M48 in 8mm and I wanted to build an inexpensive hunting rifle so I built a nice scout clone using the M48 mauser, Byods (one of their "specials") stock and Burris scout scope mounted where the rear sight was.

It doesn't meet Cooper's criteria and I don't prefer the scout over a normal bolt gun, but it does make a nice foul weather or loaner gun.

It works and was also alot cheaper than drilling and tapping the receiver for a regular scope mount.
 
The scout rifle was a concept, defined by parameters set up by Cooper after studying what a man afield might want or need in a light, handy, powerful rifle that would be sturdy and accurate enough for defense or general hunting. As stated, it wasn't to be a full blown battle rifle, capable of stopping the Chinese, etc. He set the length at one meter, and the weight at 3 kilos. I have watched the progress of such, and I have seen few, if ANY rifles that meet the criteria set down. Steyr doesn't make the weight with a scope. To meet the specs, the rifle has to INCLUDE the optics, sling, etc, and make the 6.6 lbs. There have been some featherweight hunting rifles that MIGHT carry a scout scope and be under 3 kilos, but I have not held one. As far as I am concerned, the makers still need to push the envelope, and give us a titanium rifle with all the goods, and make weight. Sure, a .308 at 3K is going to kick, but the joy of packing such a rifle would more than make up for the few shots in the field and temporary shoulder bruising.
 
A Scout rifle is one of my long-term projects. It started years ago when I was able to do a lot more shooting than I can now.


The rifle: Remington Model 7, 20", stainless/synthetic.
7mm-08.
IER Leupold on a Burris Scout mount.
Ching sling setup.
Butt cuff for ammo.

Doesn't make weight, but when I eventually get the Kevlar stock, it will.
No magazine cut-off, but no production rifle offers that anyway.
No backup irons yet.
No bipod, and no plans for one.

I've been using this rifle on and off for several years, and I have to say that I'm sold on the concept. Don't agree with everything Cooper had to say, but I have a hard time finding fault with this.
 
Levers like the Savages and Sako came close, .243 would fit the bill for me. Light recoil equates light rifle being easy to shoot, inherent accuracy and flat ballistics equate to foolproof holdovers at farther distances.

A flat shooting Sako lever makes a great time/distance course choice as well, light with fast target acquisition.
 
I can tell you from firsthand experience that the all of the so-called advantages of the scout rifle are lost on a lefty. Once you have to reach across the receiver to operate the action or load the magazine it doesn't matter where the scope is located or if it has iron sights.

I bought a Savage, but sold it in favor of a Tikka T3 in a LH action. I liked the iron sights, but hated everything else about the Savage. It was very accurate but the ergonomics were terrible for me.

A question to one of the posters above: Why make a Scout rifle in a non-military caliber? Part of the concept was to capitalize on readily available ammo...there's no 7mm/08 on the urban battlefield!
 
Well, first of all, the Scout concept was designed to be a General Purpose rifle, and only coincidentally a military tool. Cooper's standard Scouts were all in .308, that's true, but he had a few "Super Scouts" that were in .350 Rem Mag... And he didn't even like belted cases.

Maybe more to the point, if I'm ever involved in an "urban battlefield" environment, I'll have something instead of (or in addition to) the Scout.

I built this with an ultimate intended purpose of being a mountain sheep rifle, should I ever get the opportunity, and a 7mm cartridge seemed like just the ticket.

Also, in "To Ride, Shoot Straight, And Speak The Truth", the Colonel devotes a long chapter to the Scout Rifle, and specifically mentions the 7mm-08 as a perfectly suitable cartridge for the weapon. I'll try to quote him from memory.."and the 7mm-08 has even better ballistics, if that matters..."

In addition, I was working a trade for the rifle, base and rings, and scope with a dealer who unfortunately had no .308s in stock. Had Cooper not spoken of the cartridge, I probably would have waited, but I'm frankly not disappointed that it worked out the way it did. I like it a lot.
 
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