Jeff Cooper's Scout rifle
- Thread starter Ike666
- Start date
Steyr scout?
http://www.steyrscout.org/project.htm
http://www.steyrscout.org/project.htm
Following the failure of the Bren-Ten Cooper was desperate to create another Franchise
Hence the Scout Rifle and the MBR both of which followed the failure of the "Anti Priacy Rifle/Carbine" these attempts were back in the 1960-70's before the currant AR rage.
Cooper was a 1940-50's kinda guy, his go foward thinking was still at a WW2 level in the 1970's.
In the early 1970's he was just behind the curve, but by the 1980's he was in the dirt.
Cooper's mistake was to try to force the world's dynamics into a mold that was 20-30 years out of date.
Cooper never acknoladged modern production methods that made new weapon platforms possible. To Cooper the 1911 Pistol and the M1 Rifle were ultimate expression of weapon-tech. The clock stopped for him at 1941. I could almost agree with that vision except I was in Nam and saw what a few cheap Commie SAWS could do to a platoon.
In retrospect Cooper was a guy that rode coat tails. a good shot yes, a foward thinker that concidered ComBlock weapons before he laid down his words; no
Hence the Scout Rifle and the MBR both of which followed the failure of the "Anti Priacy Rifle/Carbine" these attempts were back in the 1960-70's before the currant AR rage.
Cooper was a 1940-50's kinda guy, his go foward thinking was still at a WW2 level in the 1970's.
In the early 1970's he was just behind the curve, but by the 1980's he was in the dirt.
Cooper's mistake was to try to force the world's dynamics into a mold that was 20-30 years out of date.
Cooper never acknoladged modern production methods that made new weapon platforms possible. To Cooper the 1911 Pistol and the M1 Rifle were ultimate expression of weapon-tech. The clock stopped for him at 1941. I could almost agree with that vision except I was in Nam and saw what a few cheap Commie SAWS could do to a platoon.
In retrospect Cooper was a guy that rode coat tails. a good shot yes, a foward thinker that concidered ComBlock weapons before he laid down his words; no
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notamisfit6
New member
Uhh, the whole point behind the Scout was to make use of "modern production methods" and technologies, to reduce weight and make a general purpose weapon.
The real problem is that Eugene Stoner got there first with a caliber the Colonel didn't like.
The real problem is that Eugene Stoner got there first with a caliber the Colonel didn't like.
Before Cooper, folks shot pistols one handed, there were no "4 Rules" and situational awareness was "keep your eyes open" .......
..... those who say Cooper never did anything original have not read Cooper.
...... "There is little functional difference between those who can not read and those who do not."
..... those who say Cooper never did anything original have not read Cooper.
...... "There is little functional difference between those who can not read and those who do not."
When the 'Actuals' are Speaking
they say" Some folks were there"
Cooper never broke any boundries
His Foo was copied after the Shanghi Police who were copied by the SAS and the OSS, latter adopted by the French.
Lots of Folks were grabbing the Lime Light after the '2' especialy in DC. Many of the best op types, passed on in Greece. Leaving a huge hole in the LORE that was conviently filled by the PPL that never left the South of France. Cooper was none of either. Cooper could train you to a 1970's level,. in the 1980's but that was it.
they say" Some folks were there"
Cooper never broke any boundries
His Foo was copied after the Shanghi Police who were copied by the SAS and the OSS, latter adopted by the French.
Lots of Folks were grabbing the Lime Light after the '2' especialy in DC. Many of the best op types, passed on in Greece. Leaving a huge hole in the LORE that was conviently filled by the PPL that never left the South of France. Cooper was none of either. Cooper could train you to a 1970's level,. in the 1980's but that was it.
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kenno,
Thank you for your insight. Unfortunately nothing has really changed in the world of guns since 1941 but marketing. Sure there is more use of plastic which started in the 60's, but nothing is fundamentally different. Humans sure aren't fundamentally different.
While that training is "antiquated" by some standard you hold, it still produced men like Carlos Hathcock, Rex Applegate, and Bull Simmons.
And until you master the basics, there is no point in trying to become an "Elite Team Fighter".
The scout rifle was meant to be a rifleman's rifle. Easy to pack and carry for long distances, capable of precision shots and still able to have a 300 meter "battlesight zero". Reasonable weight, reasonable rate of fire, reasonable "stopping power". That both Steyr and Savage have specifically put out "Scout Rifle" packages is testimony to the soundness of the concept. I've built two "psuedo-scouts" on Mauser actions myself, and they sure are handy (psuedo because I left them in 8x57).
Cooper may not be the cutting edge of tactics, but you can't get to the cutting edge of tactics without mastering the groundwork that Cooper and others established.
Jimro
Thank you for your insight. Unfortunately nothing has really changed in the world of guns since 1941 but marketing. Sure there is more use of plastic which started in the 60's, but nothing is fundamentally different. Humans sure aren't fundamentally different.
While that training is "antiquated" by some standard you hold, it still produced men like Carlos Hathcock, Rex Applegate, and Bull Simmons.
And until you master the basics, there is no point in trying to become an "Elite Team Fighter".
The scout rifle was meant to be a rifleman's rifle. Easy to pack and carry for long distances, capable of precision shots and still able to have a 300 meter "battlesight zero". Reasonable weight, reasonable rate of fire, reasonable "stopping power". That both Steyr and Savage have specifically put out "Scout Rifle" packages is testimony to the soundness of the concept. I've built two "psuedo-scouts" on Mauser actions myself, and they sure are handy (psuedo because I left them in 8x57).
Cooper may not be the cutting edge of tactics, but you can't get to the cutting edge of tactics without mastering the groundwork that Cooper and others established.
Jimro
While I have not always agreed with Cooper on many points, he learned what he knew in the USMC, and took it to the world. Once he quit learning and started trying to teach the world, he was no longer cutting edge. However, he was well-versed in combat arts and believed what he believed, irrespective of facts. Like a lot of us! He was not perfect, but he did know how to shoot, and he taught a lot of softbodies how to shoot and gave them a little bit of warrior education. Yes, it was dated info, but compared to what many of his students knew before they went to Gunsight it was pure magic.
And yes, there were several versions of a Scout Rifle manufactured.
And yes, there were several versions of a Scout Rifle manufactured.
bamaranger
New member
OP
Back on track and not on Cooper.
Yeah, Steyr made a scout, very modernistic looking. Pricey and I think now defunct. Savage still makes a scout as well that is more conventional in appearance, but a bit heavy by Cooper standards.
Lots of shooters have made home brewed versions, and custom numbers are available.
There are length and weight numbers, but I don't have them at my fingertips.
Additional features were a 3pt or Ching sling, bipod (integral on the Steyr and some custom stocks) on board spare ammo, and the forward mounted "scout scope". And a serious caliber, .308 preferred, 7-08 likely made grade also.
Oh yeah, backup-spare ghost ring/ post sights.
The scout rifle was to be a GP number. Portable, suitably powerful with enough accuracy to go to 300 yds or so on game. I suppose it could be a combat rifle, designated marksman rifle, hunting rifle etc, but it was not to be purely one of those things. It certainly was not intended to go heads on with AK's, RPD's and Charlie.
Whether the scout does all those other things is open to discussion.
I've got a Savage scout that I like just fine.
Back on track and not on Cooper.
Yeah, Steyr made a scout, very modernistic looking. Pricey and I think now defunct. Savage still makes a scout as well that is more conventional in appearance, but a bit heavy by Cooper standards.
Lots of shooters have made home brewed versions, and custom numbers are available.
There are length and weight numbers, but I don't have them at my fingertips.
Additional features were a 3pt or Ching sling, bipod (integral on the Steyr and some custom stocks) on board spare ammo, and the forward mounted "scout scope". And a serious caliber, .308 preferred, 7-08 likely made grade also.
Oh yeah, backup-spare ghost ring/ post sights.
The scout rifle was to be a GP number. Portable, suitably powerful with enough accuracy to go to 300 yds or so on game. I suppose it could be a combat rifle, designated marksman rifle, hunting rifle etc, but it was not to be purely one of those things. It certainly was not intended to go heads on with AK's, RPD's and Charlie.
Whether the scout does all those other things is open to discussion.
I've got a Savage scout that I like just fine.
HorseSoldier
New member
I'm neither a Cooper hater nor do I think he walked on water -- he made real contributions to the art and science of gunfighting, but kenno is right insofar as Cooper's thinking and teaching stagnated at some point.
As far as the Scout Rifle is concerned, though, Cooper was just out of his mind and really was stuck in a timewarp. He talked about the idea in terms of something a military scout could employ, and it was real cutting edge stuff . . . for 1935 (as for originality, though, I don't know -- the format was pretty much what the Wehrmacht wanted for all its K98k's before WW2 broke out, so it wasn't exactly groundbreaking). People have subsequently tried real hard to make sense of the idea for a sporting rifle, but it has never really panned out, and Steyr's run of scout rifles didn't find much of a market.
As far as the Scout Rifle is concerned, though, Cooper was just out of his mind and really was stuck in a timewarp. He talked about the idea in terms of something a military scout could employ, and it was real cutting edge stuff . . . for 1935 (as for originality, though, I don't know -- the format was pretty much what the Wehrmacht wanted for all its K98k's before WW2 broke out, so it wasn't exactly groundbreaking). People have subsequently tried real hard to make sense of the idea for a sporting rifle, but it has never really panned out, and Steyr's run of scout rifles didn't find much of a market.
notamisfit6
New member
I think the concept made more sense back when stocks were wood and every gas system was a piston; what military rifle from that period didn't weigh a long ton?
Danny Creasy
New member
How about mine in .45 ACP?
Zeroed for the same ammo as my 1911 and has no trouble knocking a Maxwell House coffee can around at 125 yards (just use the taper at the top of the bottom crosshair as a post):
Really just kiddin folks - I know this is not what the Col. had in mind. But, I can never pass up a chance to show my "funny gun" off.
Zeroed for the same ammo as my 1911 and has no trouble knocking a Maxwell House coffee can around at 125 yards (just use the taper at the top of the bottom crosshair as a post):
Really just kiddin folks - I know this is not what the Col. had in mind. But, I can never pass up a chance to show my "funny gun" off.
I am by no means a follower of Cooper, though I hate to admit being somewhat of a secret admirer of Elmer Keith. Every word that man wrote, when I read them, I hear my father's voice. Yet it seems that Cooper was also an admirer of Keith early on but the war gave him a new perspective. Mind you, I find some other early writers to be equally interesting.
The Scout Rifle, however, is something else. While I realize it may have been his ideal and he was delighted, I'm sure, to finally own one (they didn't make money for Cooper as far as I know), it doesn't fit any of my ideals for a rifle. First of all, it's too expensive. After that, nothing else matters. But why is it that people who dream up such things always first and formost, apparently, think of it as a hunting rifle? But Cooper did hunt, I understand.
I did at least have a chance to examine one. It was a work of art, as it should be at that price (But so are all Colts). It didn't seem to me to have any of the qualities of a modern military arm, though Cooper was excited when he found a photo of a man armed with one in the civil war in Yugoslavia. But you say his thinking was 1940? Well, he suggested having a magazine cut-off, which makes his thinking more like 1898.
Let me digress here for a minute and talk about the scope.
The Germans apparently came up with the idea of a forward mounted, low power telescopic sight. It was used on rifles that their infantry squad designated marksman (our term; don't know what they called them) by the time the MP-44 had arrived on the scene. It wasn't intended as a sniper's weapon. That called for a more traditional setup with a more powerful scope. It is interesting that no one else ever tried that arrangement until telescopic sights became more common, which is a recent thing, and even so they are not forward mounted. In the 1950s these low-power scopes somehow showed up in magazine advertisements. I don't know if many used them on rifles, no doubt some did, but some handgunners with a progressive and experimental nature started using them on their revolvers. I expect Cooper was aware of all this and merely put one and one together.
Overall, I'd have to say it wasn't a bad idea and if you look around, everything has a scope anymore. I wonder what Cooper thought about the current trend in the army to use scopes on lowly infantry rifles, if he was ever aware of it. No doubt Keith would have wanted one himself on his .30-06 (his idea of a little rifle) but for anyone else, he would have insisted on your being able to make hits at 500 yards (not meters) with iron sights before you were allowed to use a scope. If nothing else, he had high standards.
I cannot fault any of his ideas about handguns and I think a Colt .45 automatic is perfectly wonderful, yet I don't have one. My .45 auto is half plastic, half metal and all Ruger. I mean to pick up another Colt if I can ever scrape up the money but it is scarce on the ground at the moment.
I see no point to anyone's color coded scales, especially the government's.
If I were to buy another rifle, it wouldn't be a Steyr Scout. But now that it's come up, I'll spend the next two weeks thinking about it, once I quit thinking about that Seecamp.
The Scout Rifle, however, is something else. While I realize it may have been his ideal and he was delighted, I'm sure, to finally own one (they didn't make money for Cooper as far as I know), it doesn't fit any of my ideals for a rifle. First of all, it's too expensive. After that, nothing else matters. But why is it that people who dream up such things always first and formost, apparently, think of it as a hunting rifle? But Cooper did hunt, I understand.
I did at least have a chance to examine one. It was a work of art, as it should be at that price (But so are all Colts). It didn't seem to me to have any of the qualities of a modern military arm, though Cooper was excited when he found a photo of a man armed with one in the civil war in Yugoslavia. But you say his thinking was 1940? Well, he suggested having a magazine cut-off, which makes his thinking more like 1898.
Let me digress here for a minute and talk about the scope.
The Germans apparently came up with the idea of a forward mounted, low power telescopic sight. It was used on rifles that their infantry squad designated marksman (our term; don't know what they called them) by the time the MP-44 had arrived on the scene. It wasn't intended as a sniper's weapon. That called for a more traditional setup with a more powerful scope. It is interesting that no one else ever tried that arrangement until telescopic sights became more common, which is a recent thing, and even so they are not forward mounted. In the 1950s these low-power scopes somehow showed up in magazine advertisements. I don't know if many used them on rifles, no doubt some did, but some handgunners with a progressive and experimental nature started using them on their revolvers. I expect Cooper was aware of all this and merely put one and one together.
Overall, I'd have to say it wasn't a bad idea and if you look around, everything has a scope anymore. I wonder what Cooper thought about the current trend in the army to use scopes on lowly infantry rifles, if he was ever aware of it. No doubt Keith would have wanted one himself on his .30-06 (his idea of a little rifle) but for anyone else, he would have insisted on your being able to make hits at 500 yards (not meters) with iron sights before you were allowed to use a scope. If nothing else, he had high standards.
I cannot fault any of his ideas about handguns and I think a Colt .45 automatic is perfectly wonderful, yet I don't have one. My .45 auto is half plastic, half metal and all Ruger. I mean to pick up another Colt if I can ever scrape up the money but it is scarce on the ground at the moment.
I see no point to anyone's color coded scales, especially the government's.
If I were to buy another rifle, it wouldn't be a Steyr Scout. But now that it's come up, I'll spend the next two weeks thinking about it, once I quit thinking about that Seecamp.
Art Eatman
Staff in Memoriam
There are walk-through courses of fire at Gunsite, using rifles on various targets over a few hundred yards of trail. One's score is a function of hits and time.
Those who are proficient in the use of Scout rifles score higher than those who use other sorts of rifles. Target acquisition time is faster.
I've always found that results count more than opinions...
Those who are proficient in the use of Scout rifles score higher than those who use other sorts of rifles. Target acquisition time is faster.
I've always found that results count more than opinions...
Black Frog
New member
how about the Ruger Frontier?
Can be used with scout forward mount, or conventional scope mount over the receiver.
I have one in 358 and in 7mm-08. 16.5" barrel, carries like a bb gun. A handier more compact package, I doubt you'll find.
Can be used with scout forward mount, or conventional scope mount over the receiver.
I have one in 358 and in 7mm-08. 16.5" barrel, carries like a bb gun. A handier more compact package, I doubt you'll find.
mapsjanhere
New member
Scout scopes made sense when fast reloading meant stripper or on-bloc clip. Both don't work well with over-the-action scopes. I've seen arguments the scout scope gives you a full field of view without having to reposition to shoot, but unless your enemy pops up in that very narrow angle that your gun happens to be pointing at the time advantage seems minimal.