Jeff Cooper and the "General Purpose Rifle"
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You guys realize the REASON the scope was mounted forward was that Cooper demanded the "scout rifle" blah blah had to be loaded from STRIPPER CLIPS. So the scope was moved forward.
ok so maybe the LER scope has neat features. Ask anyone who ever scoped a winchester 94. But to me (and I'm very vocal about this) the Scout is a cool "idea" ie shot action fast handling blah blah blah...
What Is NOT cool is a rifle that Costs $2500 and is no better than a 30-30 or Mini 30. That just baffles the mind. Well its short and light and it WON'T shoot MOA for $2500??? Its not DESIGNED to shoot MOA for $2500?? Its only made in Austria by virgins of the sacred reich or what?? Visions of fat ladies in winged helmets aside.. what is so special about THAT make over other similar 'concepts' from american makers?? Any american maker can get MOA for less than $500. Oh yes the Col. recommeneded it, well then by all means it MUST be good then. Oh yes the Col. was also out in the hot sun all day scolding mad dogs and englishmen. But its got fancy optics look... Zeiss glass is nice, but it ain't that nice. Besides... ITS NOT and MOA rifle. Why does it need 'precision' glass? Oh but it has a detachable magazine.. which is limited in supply and utility.. can you IMAGINE buying a bandolier of $50 scout mags?? But wait it has butt spacers.. yes and I can Buy them from Gale McMillan's company rest his blessed soul, or I could buy a slip over recoil pad for say.. 10 bucks at wal-mart?. But wait.. its grey.. thats very tactical... so is a can of krylon primer grey. But its got a Ching-Sling! You have a problem with a regular sling? oh wait ITS NOT AN MOA Rifle.. why do you even NEED a sniper sling???????
If you are 'scouting' for anybody you better be carrying a rifle, hopefully one that has a lot of bullets. Like an M-4 or an Ak
I think Cooper can EAT HIS HAT on this one.
Because in modern day combat no one asks curmudgedly old colonels to guide them into the bush to chase the hun.
I think when Courtney Sealous did that he carried a Lee-Metford. And he didn't even need a scope. 
What I would like to.. nay LOVE to see is a competition between a bunch of Steyr Scout weilding know it alls versus a bunch of franken-scout conversions and see if there really IS a difference. I'm picturing rifles that look they were made on junkyard wars.. anyone know where to get a scope mount that LOOKs like pipe fittings??
ok so maybe the LER scope has neat features. Ask anyone who ever scoped a winchester 94. But to me (and I'm very vocal about this) the Scout is a cool "idea" ie shot action fast handling blah blah blah...
What Is NOT cool is a rifle that Costs $2500 and is no better than a 30-30 or Mini 30. That just baffles the mind. Well its short and light and it WON'T shoot MOA for $2500??? Its not DESIGNED to shoot MOA for $2500?? Its only made in Austria by virgins of the sacred reich or what?? Visions of fat ladies in winged helmets aside.. what is so special about THAT make over other similar 'concepts' from american makers?? Any american maker can get MOA for less than $500. Oh yes the Col. recommeneded it, well then by all means it MUST be good then. Oh yes the Col. was also out in the hot sun all day scolding mad dogs and englishmen. But its got fancy optics look... Zeiss glass is nice, but it ain't that nice. Besides... ITS NOT and MOA rifle. Why does it need 'precision' glass? Oh but it has a detachable magazine.. which is limited in supply and utility.. can you IMAGINE buying a bandolier of $50 scout mags?? But wait it has butt spacers.. yes and I can Buy them from Gale McMillan's company rest his blessed soul, or I could buy a slip over recoil pad for say.. 10 bucks at wal-mart?. But wait.. its grey.. thats very tactical... so is a can of krylon primer grey. But its got a Ching-Sling! You have a problem with a regular sling? oh wait ITS NOT AN MOA Rifle.. why do you even NEED a sniper sling???????
If you are 'scouting' for anybody you better be carrying a rifle, hopefully one that has a lot of bullets. Like an M-4 or an Ak
I think Cooper can EAT HIS HAT on this one.
Because in modern day combat no one asks curmudgedly old colonels to guide them into the bush to chase the hun. I think when Courtney Sealous did that he carried a Lee-Metford. And he didn't even need a scope. What I would like to.. nay LOVE to see is a competition between a bunch of Steyr Scout weilding know it alls versus a bunch of franken-scout conversions and see if there really IS a difference. I'm picturing rifles that look they were made on junkyard wars.. anyone know where to get a scope mount that LOOKs like pipe fittings??
Words of whisdom has spoken (sighhhh). Can't shoot MOA? Well mine have shot 1/4" (ok, so it was 7mm, not 6.35mm) 5-shot group at 100m, I'm sure it can do it again. Only thing keeping it from shooting sub 1" groups all day long is me...
Oh, and thats from the built in, fold out, totally useless according to some (who probably never used them anyway), bipods.
And the sight, yes, the cross is thick, 2 MOA (NOT 3 or 4 or whatever), but how small things do you shoot with a general purpose rifle? And how can people hit anything with open sights thats way bigger than 2 MOA?
And on the sight it says "Leupold", sneaky bastards those germans, huh? (Oh look, cheap american crap!)Yeah, it might be expensive, I payed exactly what I make in a month for it before taxes, and I still think it was worth it. There is plenty other nice rifles out there, but I wouldn't switch it for any I have seen so far nonetheless (well, if it was a REALLY expensive one, that I could sell to buy another Scout and get money as well I would).
What I can't understand is how a concept can stir such emotion? If you don't like it, fine, don't buy it. It's not like anyone will force you to buy it, is it? And why does people who obviously don't know **** about it come crawling out to show their lack of knowledge? :barf:
Edward429451
Moderator
I dub the Remington 700 ADL Synthetic Youth in .308 Win., the "Poor mans Scout Rifle"
Williams Peep sights will let you do anything that needs doing within 300-500 yards. This rifle was only $374. out the door and puts the steyr to shame. We've had no problems with our poor man scout, and its already doubley paid for itself in meat.
Williams Peep sights will let you do anything that needs doing within 300-500 yards. This rifle was only $374. out the door and puts the steyr to shame. We've had no problems with our poor man scout, and its already doubley paid for itself in meat.
Art Eatman
Staff in Memoriam
Whee! Relax, Dr. Rob!
What seems to have been forgotten is that Cooper offered a concept. Steyr was the only factory who took him up on it--and I think they turned out an overpriced, ugly thingummy.
While I know zilch about reliability and all that about the Steyr product, it seems that those who adapt to the scope do just fine with it. Those who don't, don't. So? I happen not to like it, but all that means is that I won't buy one.
If anybody remembers, Cooper thought the old Remington 600 in .308, with a forward mounting of the scope, was pretty close. A problem was that nobody made a scope mount that would allow his idea to work. (A few people tried to make sleeves and other "unsightlies")
I sure agree with Mikke about the emotions involved in all this. Where I fault the good Colonel is in his disregard for cost. Sorry, but I see no justification for the cost of the Steyr.
(I disagree with Cooper on offhand shooting and beyond-300-yard shots, FWIW, but all that's for another thread.)
Still, I agree in general with Cooper's ideas for a Scout Rifle as a General Purpose rifle. The fact that the execution of the idea doesn't suit me does not obviate the validity of the idea. And, some different idea about the location of the scope does not mean that Cooper's idea was wrong or that the "standard" mount is "the only way".
Again, my little Sako .243 is as good an anti-personnel weapon as Charles Whitman's 6mm Remington. It'll kill jackrabbits, coyotes and deer. At seven pounds it's easy to carry all day long. That's General Purpose enough for me.
And my blessings on those who have a different idea.
, Art
What seems to have been forgotten is that Cooper offered a concept. Steyr was the only factory who took him up on it--and I think they turned out an overpriced, ugly thingummy.
While I know zilch about reliability and all that about the Steyr product, it seems that those who adapt to the scope do just fine with it. Those who don't, don't. So? I happen not to like it, but all that means is that I won't buy one.
If anybody remembers, Cooper thought the old Remington 600 in .308, with a forward mounting of the scope, was pretty close. A problem was that nobody made a scope mount that would allow his idea to work. (A few people tried to make sleeves and other "unsightlies")
I sure agree with Mikke about the emotions involved in all this. Where I fault the good Colonel is in his disregard for cost. Sorry, but I see no justification for the cost of the Steyr.
(I disagree with Cooper on offhand shooting and beyond-300-yard shots, FWIW, but all that's for another thread.)
Still, I agree in general with Cooper's ideas for a Scout Rifle as a General Purpose rifle. The fact that the execution of the idea doesn't suit me does not obviate the validity of the idea. And, some different idea about the location of the scope does not mean that Cooper's idea was wrong or that the "standard" mount is "the only way".
Again, my little Sako .243 is as good an anti-personnel weapon as Charles Whitman's 6mm Remington. It'll kill jackrabbits, coyotes and deer. At seven pounds it's easy to carry all day long. That's General Purpose enough for me.
And my blessings on those who have a different idea.
, ArtI have to agree with those who disparge not the concept, but the execution of the Steyr. In my opinion something aimed at being ultra verstile relates well to being a good value. With $2,500 I can find something with gorgeous wood, beautiful fit and finish to slobber all over. I could also purchase a CZ550 DB; shorten the barrel, place it in a synthetic stock, mount a LER scope, add sling (Ching or other) and have money left for a Wal-Mart Special 12 ga. plus two cases of ammo. Heck, the Savage Scout gets you many of the features Cooper lists at a retail price that's downright cheap in comparison.
With that said, if I had the money to burn I'd buy the Steyr Scout. I can't afford to burn much of anything, so when I need a "truck gun", it'll be cheap.
JJCII
With that said, if I had the money to burn I'd buy the Steyr Scout. I can't afford to burn much of anything, so when I need a "truck gun", it'll be cheap.
JJCII
Keith Rogan
New member
Ditto to several posts here!
I LIKE Cooper's concept, but I think the execution by Steyr fails on the basis of cost, if nothing else. To me, "General Purpose" means just that - a rifle that costs $2500 is rather an elite item and hardly within the grasp of the average guy, which after all is its "general" purpose...
But lets not tear down the concept because of this. I think the Colonel is right in most particulars. Bigger is not always better. Doesn't an 8 1/2 pound long-action Super-Mag Whoozit sort of get in the way more than it "helps" for most types of hunting or defensive use? A carbine makes a lot of sense, and the "Scout" modifications also make sense - within limits - so, take what works for you, and leave the rest behind.
I LIKE Cooper's concept, but I think the execution by Steyr fails on the basis of cost, if nothing else. To me, "General Purpose" means just that - a rifle that costs $2500 is rather an elite item and hardly within the grasp of the average guy, which after all is its "general" purpose...
But lets not tear down the concept because of this. I think the Colonel is right in most particulars. Bigger is not always better. Doesn't an 8 1/2 pound long-action Super-Mag Whoozit sort of get in the way more than it "helps" for most types of hunting or defensive use? A carbine makes a lot of sense, and the "Scout" modifications also make sense - within limits - so, take what works for you, and leave the rest behind.
Edward429451- You recommended the Remington ADLSY with the Williams before to me. I have to commend you on the fact that you have a unique rifle that works for you. I'm seriously considering getting that combo to keep in my truck.
355sigfan- Don't take this as a flame or anything, I'm just inclined to disagree with you. While I don't like the Steyr too much I'd have to disagree that a scout or GP rifle is more than a "conversation piece". How many times have you fired your CAR at a live target? Does it see more use than just at the range? No one ever claimed that the scout was a combat rifle. Its just Cooper's definition of his general purpose rifle. His needs are different than mine. You seem to need a dedicated combat rifle only and that's fine. But you shouldn't tell people that just because the scout isn't a good combat rifle that we should all abandon the concept and go out and buy .223 carbines. IMHO the GP rifle holds great merit. Thanks for listening
Dan
355sigfan- Don't take this as a flame or anything, I'm just inclined to disagree with you. While I don't like the Steyr too much I'd have to disagree that a scout or GP rifle is more than a "conversation piece". How many times have you fired your CAR at a live target? Does it see more use than just at the range? No one ever claimed that the scout was a combat rifle. Its just Cooper's definition of his general purpose rifle. His needs are different than mine. You seem to need a dedicated combat rifle only and that's fine. But you shouldn't tell people that just because the scout isn't a good combat rifle that we should all abandon the concept and go out and buy .223 carbines. IMHO the GP rifle holds great merit. Thanks for listening
Dan
Dan I use my 223 as a patrol carbine. I have never killed with it and I hope I don't have too. As for the scout concept. I don't full understand it I guess. I can see maybe wanting the extra range of the 308 but why a bolt gun. Why not a para Fal with a 16 inch tube or a M1A set up as a scout gun. I see bolt guns as sniper weapons and their even losing ground thier too lately.
PAT
PAT
gee guys.. I thought you liked my rants.
Guys who hunt with rifles (like me) usually own more than one. After all, what golfer uses only one club? the 375 HH mag maybe the best 'generalists' cartridge in the world, but as a squirrel gun its lacking.
The Best "gp rifle" ever may indeed be a 22.
Think about it.
Ammo is cheap and available worldwide. You can put food on the table with it. You could use it for defense if you HAD to. And a good one is capable of moa, well almost. Of course long range knock down power is lacking, and I wouldn't try to kill a buffalo with one.
But usually, here in Colorado.. or here on the lower 48.. a good bolt gun in 30-06, 308 or 270 is the best 'generalist' rifle you could have.
Like I said, as a 'concept' the scout's NOT bad. At its price there are a lot of nicer rifles available.
Guys who hunt with rifles (like me) usually own more than one. After all, what golfer uses only one club? the 375 HH mag maybe the best 'generalists' cartridge in the world, but as a squirrel gun its lacking.
The Best "gp rifle" ever may indeed be a 22.
Think about it.
Ammo is cheap and available worldwide. You can put food on the table with it. You could use it for defense if you HAD to. And a good one is capable of moa, well almost. Of course long range knock down power is lacking, and I wouldn't try to kill a buffalo with one.
But usually, here in Colorado.. or here on the lower 48.. a good bolt gun in 30-06, 308 or 270 is the best 'generalist' rifle you could have.
Like I said, as a 'concept' the scout's NOT bad. At its price there are a lot of nicer rifles available.
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Art Eatman
Staff in Memoriam
Hey, 355sigfan: The .223 is not a good general purpose cartridge. It's marginal for deer, and forget such things as really big deer, or elk.
The M1A is overly heavy and too long for easy handling, when you're just out wandering and plinking or out doing serious hunting.
In "General Purpose", a large capacity magazine is unnecessary weight and/or complexity; rate of fire is not of notable importance--so a bolt gun is generally superior.
Art
The M1A is overly heavy and too long for easy handling, when you're just out wandering and plinking or out doing serious hunting.
In "General Purpose", a large capacity magazine is unnecessary weight and/or complexity; rate of fire is not of notable importance--so a bolt gun is generally superior.
Art
Pat, thanks for taking the time to reply. I see that "general" use for you is for patrol duty to hopefully never use on live targets. An AR type rifle is great for that. But "general" use for me is mostly hunting game, so that's why a bolt is a great choice for what I generally do. General purpose is completely dependent on what we each generally do as individuals. If I type general again I'm going to *:barf:*
Dan
Dan
Edward429451
Moderator
Nope, no matter how much I like the .22 LR, I couldnt call it a GP cartridge. I load those 110 gr LRN bullets (for the .30 carbine), in the .308 with a light charge, and it does great on squirrels and rabbits, and I've got plans to get one of those .308/32 acp cartridge adaptors to increase its versatility.
To me, GP means eating whatever comes along, and defending whatever comes along, even in a pinch, and the good ol' .22 wont pinch much either way.
To me, GP means eating whatever comes along, and defending whatever comes along, even in a pinch, and the good ol' .22 wont pinch much either way.
Note to Dr. Rob:
Having hunted ground squirrels with Ashley Emerson and his .375 H&H, I can say with all certainty that there were no squirrels that felt the caliber "lacking".
The 300 grain Barnes X bullets were particularely effective on them.
BWAHAHAHAHAHA!
My personal choice for an all round rifle is a bolt action 30-06. Does it all, and down they fall.
I use the 165 grain Sierra Game King for everything I shoot with it. Superb accuracy, excellent terminal ballistics.
Having hunted ground squirrels with Ashley Emerson and his .375 H&H, I can say with all certainty that there were no squirrels that felt the caliber "lacking".
The 300 grain Barnes X bullets were particularely effective on them.
BWAHAHAHAHAHA!
My personal choice for an all round rifle is a bolt action 30-06. Does it all, and down they fall.
I use the 165 grain Sierra Game King for everything I shoot with it. Superb accuracy, excellent terminal ballistics.
I think Cooper said it was a military rifle, for a military scout. In that role a scope is a huge disadvantage because it is fragile and needs maintenance to keep the lenses clean. I would rather have a milsurp carbine that accepts stripper clips and has sturdy iron sights to that Steyr Scout. Even my $75 M91/59 Mosin Nagant carbine is a better scout rifle. But any military would go with a semi or full auto, and they would be correct to do so.
When you factor in hunting, there are better hunting rifles than his scout also. A longer barrel adds to velocity and diminishes muzzle blast and more scope power helps for things like seeing antlers in the many bucks only areas of the country. More weight adds steadiness to your hold, but you can keep a 22" sporter pretty light if that is your desire.
His sling idea is pretty good, though.
Someone mentioned that very few of us go out the door with a rifle not knowing what we will use it for. That is such a perceptive point. If you don't live on a ranch you know exactly what you are hunting today.
When you factor in hunting, there are better hunting rifles than his scout also. A longer barrel adds to velocity and diminishes muzzle blast and more scope power helps for things like seeing antlers in the many bucks only areas of the country. More weight adds steadiness to your hold, but you can keep a 22" sporter pretty light if that is your desire.
His sling idea is pretty good, though.
Someone mentioned that very few of us go out the door with a rifle not knowing what we will use it for. That is such a perceptive point. If you don't live on a ranch you know exactly what you are hunting today.
Art Eatman
Staff in Memoriam
AC, I think you're making a bit much of "fragile". A military "Scout" is unlikely to need to butt-stroke an enemy--which ain't a good thing to try with an M-16, anyway.
You can booger up the iron sights on a Garand, etc., darned near as easy as bust a scope. The innards of a quality scope are tougher than they're given credit for. (I've found this out the hard way, falling off a mountain or two over the years. Leupold = Good!)
Art
You can booger up the iron sights on a Garand, etc., darned near as easy as bust a scope. The innards of a quality scope are tougher than they're given credit for. (I've found this out the hard way, falling off a mountain or two over the years.
Leupold = Good!)Art