Jeff Cooper and the "General Purpose Rifle"

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I like Jeff Cooper. He is wise and opinionated. But I respect his views.

He seems to believe that the Steyr Scout is the only out of the box, ready to go general purpose rifle worth owning. And I don't doubt that the Steyr Scout is good rifle. However, I haven't won the lottery yet, so a Steyr Scout (at close to $2k without glass) in my arms is not conceivable in the near or even distant future.

Do any of you think there are other alternatives for the "general purpose rifle"? Here are some that come to mind...

M1 Garand, a bit long, heavy and difficult to scope
M1A Scout, a bit heavy and expensive
any .30-.30 lever gun, it's not a .308
Savage Scout, there's a thought.

For those of you who might ask what I intend to do with this rifle, I will most likely hunt standing sheets of paper at known distances. However, I would like the weapon to have:

-potential to hit targets with decisive power out to 300 meters,
-accurate enough to put a 3 shot group within 2" at 200 yards,
-lighter than 8 pounds fully loaded and scoped.

What are your thoughts?
 
You may have a hard time "making weight" on a budget with a rifle that will shoot MOA or better.

I'm not overly fond of the SS, but I have seen them advertised at prices much closer to 1 than 2K, recently.
 
I have never been that much of a rifleman, but I started trying to become one a few years back.

Since I first saw a picture of it, I've always thought that the M1A Scout Rifle was an interesting concept and a potential future purchase. It's looks, the proven M1A design, the .308 round, all make me want one. Maybe one day I'll have the money to make this wish come true.
 
Recently, a person who knows the rightly esteemed Mr. Cooper, and who is in a position to know, commented that he is, of late, suffering from hardening of the attitudes.


A decent FAL will do the job you ask of it. I suspect an HK will too, though I've never owned one to know first hand.

I can hit man sized targets with all the power needed at 300 meters, consistently, with iron sights on an AR-15. Not a heavy barrel tack driver - I mean a basic A1. Might not be good for elk at that range, though. ;)


When one has ready access to all the bang bang toys in the world, and a healthy pocketbook, one may forget that mere mortals have to make do with lesser weapons.
 
Battle Rifle

I'd go with a full-stocked battle rifle. An M1 would be ideal, but hard to find. A Finnish M-N, Mauser '98K or SMLE No.4 Mk.1. If in good condition, any of these will perform just as well as the Scout at a tiny fraction of the price.

I just got back doing some scouting with my Yugo Mauser. I had to take it through an old avalanche path, now choked with alder and devil's club. I can't imagine anyone doing that with a Steyr Scout. Unless their wallet is a lot bigger than mine.

As far as the extra two pounds, just grow stronger!
 
(1) Accurate enough, in your hands, to hit what you are aiming at -- to the range limit of your ability.
(2) Powerful enough to kill what you routinely hunt, (or what you expect to threaten you), with one shot, given proper shot placement.
(3) Reliable and robust -- within the parameters of a reasonable cleaning and maintenance routine that you are willing to follow.
(4) Iron sights to back up your scope


A general purpose rifle differs from person to person, based on habits, environs, and needs.

For me, a 30-30 with a 4X is a great general purpose rifle. My choice for a bolt gun is a Ruger M77 Mark II in 7x57 Mauser, topped with a Leupold VariX II 3x9x40. Many would say that the 7x57 is a bad choice in the USA, because ammo is not readily available at mom and pop shops or Walmart. I like the cartridge because it has moderate recoil and a proven record in the non-dangerous game hunting fields. And I reload.

My choice for a "modern caliber" in the non-dangerous game department would be the .308 Winchester.

My choice for a "modern caliber" in the dangerous game department is to travel with a buddy who loves his 375H&H.

:)


Just my 2 cents, which is worth 2 cents

:)
 
Aaand....at the other end of the spectrum....

Mosin-Nagant and others of that ilk. Fifty buck rifles that will do all that you have asked for with cheap ammo. Gonna have to put it on a diet to make 8 pounds with scope tho.

Sam
 
Win Mod 70 compact Classic in 7mm-08 w?leupold 3x9 33 compact scope

hits inside 2" @250yds

under 7 Lbs loaded with sling and scope caps

total price under $700 and it looks better than any of the above... only change to make it more universal might be .308 other htan that why waste the money that could be spent on ammo and training.....
 
My $ .02

The first rifle I bought was a M38 Swede in 6.5x55. My 2nd rifle was a Steyr Scout. I am far from rich, heck middle class is in sight but it is a year or two away yet and I have had the Scout for over 2 years now.

I have to agree with Cooper that the price of a Steyr Scout isn't a real problem for most gun owners in the US, though it does seem to be a psychological problem for many. A question of minset IMHO.

I like the M38 a lot, but the sights and wt and clumsyness of it are a pain.

The Steyr Scout is light, easy to shoot (nice trigger), short, and handy. The over thick cross hairs of the Scope on this Cooper Package rifle are a real problem. I still don't understand how or why Cooper defends the ~3MOA crosshairs. They don't help anything, and make real world shooting more difficult. Not less like Cooper states. Consider a 200 yard shot with a rest at a white tail deer that is partially obscured...and since the crosshairs cover about 6 to 8 inches at that range you can't aim thru the opening at your target because of the cross hairs. Hunting near trees is common here and being able to see and shoot thru a clear spot matters.

I think the Steyr Scout rifle is a good rifle, but I think ~$1,000.00 is a more realistic price for it. I suspect that a Clifton Scout on a '98 Mauser is would be worth more to me than the Steyr.

I think for a GP rifle you need to decide which has a higher priority for you Goblins or Game. If game is more important, then I would suggest a Rem Model 7 in 260, 7-08, or 308 with a low power variable scope 1.5-5x or 2-7x. If Goblins are more of a concern, then I think the M1a Scout would be the first choice, AR would be 2nd choice.

If I were to start over I would probably get an AR first, I don't like the caliber for goblins but ammo is cheap & I DO like the ergonomics, followed by 7mm Rem or 300 Win.

If your looking for something sort of close to Cooper's ideals try getting a Savage 99 lever gun, it is leaps and bounds ahead of a 30-30.

One of the minor reason why I was interested in the Scout concept is that I like to spend time hiking or just wandering in the outdoors. And the Scout rifle makes a good carry rifle. But since buying it I have learned that lever guns, singles, and some autos have a very real advantage over bolt guns when it comes to sling carry for extended periods (specially if your climbing serious hills or such), they don't have a bolt handle to stab you with.

I will probably end up with a Savage in 308 or 358, or a Marlin 45-70 [NOT the guide gun I prefer the standard marlin] though I am also considering a 12 gauge auto, possibly with rifled barrel. Back near the era of the Nitro cartridges they used to make 12 gauge Rifles but that is another story.

The 308 with a 200 grain Swift handload should handle any North american critter at close range, it has the same SD as the .375" 300 grain bullet. The 358 Win can come close to Cooper's Lion Scout in 350 Rem.
 
While your saving for that scout rifle----which I dont own, but have shot a couple and might someday pick up...........I have purchased very few new rifles, i generally go to gunshows after hunting season, I prefer and like older customized 1903's or 1903'a3's, you can generally pick up a good used rifle and scope at a more reasonable price........my latest was a 1903 built probably in the 50's with an Griffin and Howe sidescope mount and rings a Nickels and warick(sp)(german glass), came with a jeweled bolt and it appears to have been lapped in ........its quite smooth.......its in .270 and a good hardwood (bishop stock)......cost was $350...........that scope is quick detachable from the mount which alone costs $300-------goodluck...fubsy.
 
As has been said, you have to decide what you most want to do first.

I used to have this idea that I could get one rifle to "do it all"- hunt, precision shoot, and handle multiple inbound hostiles. 10 minutes in the woods with an HK 91 taught me the error of my ways.

Now, I have dedicated rifles for each "mission". I have a Guide Gun that makes a handy arm on the plots I hunt near SC, considering that I could just as easily be firing at a 300 lb wild hog- or an angry herd of them- as a 150 lb deer.

I have a HB .300 WM for long-range precision work.

I have an M1 Carbine for those "urban carbine" times.

I will be getting a G1 (FAL-type) rifle soon.

I understand that not everyone can afford this wide a selection (hell, *I* can't afford it!). With that in mind, my next rifle will be a "Cub Scout" that George Stringer is building for me on a Mauser action. Since I got to determine what I wanted, I'll have a 21" barrel, and a quick-detachable light, along with the other things like Teflon coating...and 6mm Remington chambering! This is one route to go, and it has its advantages. You can probably find a gunsmith that will build "the perfect rifle" for you, for less than one of those ugly guns that Glamdring has. :D (Guy, I've got a standard Marlin .45-70, too!)

Another route I highly suggest, is looking for used customized rifles. Many custom Mausers have been built over the years. One can usually get one of these fine rifles for 1/3 or so what it would cost to make one today. Look around in publications such as Shotgun News and online. Just be sure to get a 3-day inspection period, and you should do fine.
 
To me, "general purpose" doesn't really include a battle rifle, since the probabilities are so doggoned low that a need will ever arise. So, for me, back to the bolt-action.

I've killed about 20 deer with my little Sako, and quite a few coyotes and jackrabbits. The fact that it's a Sako isn't all that important, of course. (It's the 19" Forester.)

Anyway, .243. Weighs seven pounds with Leupold 2X7 scope, sling and five rounds of ammo.

Shoots 3/8" three-shot groups, regularly. I once got 10-shot 3/4" groups, but the gun and I were 30 years younger. :D

The .243 is much like the 6mm Remington. Charles Whitman got a one-shot kill at 420 yards, on a guy standing not too far from me.

Works for me,

Art
 
We could spend pages and pages..

debating what a general purpose is or a scout rifle for that matter. I will mention this though. A GP rifle is one that serves the best in all uses not necessary the best for that particular use. The lightness and small length are real pluses for a GP rifle. It is not a sniper rifle or a varmint rifle. I think what is needed is something in an adequate and available caliber.

I suspect many on this board discussing group sizes, etc, are shooting off a bench and are not roaming in the woods, bush, desert setting up plastic milk jugs are unknown distances to see how truly measure their marksmanship.

I think a Ruger MKII All-Weather in .308, 30.06 or something similar with a 2 1/2 X or 4X scope and a leather military shooting sling is a very good all purpose rifle. Although the Colonel likes the Steyr Scout I think it is too expensive and too fragile and unreliable to fit that bill. A Savage Scout with a third swivel is certainly a very good GP rifle or the Sierra version with a 4X.

I don't like heavy rifles. An M1, FAL and others are very heavy. My Ruger MkII in 30.06 with scope and sling is slightly less than 8 pounds, probably a pound too heavy! Although carrying with a sling eases the burden, it with a day pack takes a toll after 6 to 8 hours with more to go.
 
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Flashman, I don't think anybody would argue that an all-around useful item would necessarily be the best at one particular use. Heck, it holds for cars as well as guns...

Generally, if one had only one rifle, seems to me, it oughta be useful for more than just deer/elk hunting, or just bench rest or just prairie dogs or primarily combat-style defense.

My example is in the ballpark, as is yours. To a great extent, "all-around" will vary with the main needs of the owner. If I lived in country with a lot of timber and small hills/valleys or swamps, I'd maybe be into iron sights and maybe a lever action. Dunno.

I think these discussions, so long as they remain amicable, serve to help the "newbies" as they try to assess their own needs...

FWIW, Art
 
There are a lot of (relatively) inexpensive commercial rifles that come close to Cooper's ideal, but only one that fits it to a tee.
And it's one that never occurs to most people because it's not a bolt action, but then Cooper has made it clear that the rifle doesn't have to be a bolt rifle, it only has to be short and handy, have detachable mags, be in an appropriate caliber and be equipped with LER optics.

The rifle that (in my opinion) fits best is the Browning BLR Lightning. You owe it to yourself to check one of these rifles out. With its aluminum receiver it makes weight with room to spare. It has a rotary bolt lockup that is far different than any other lever action (rather like the Blazer, I think) and is every bit as accurate as any commercial bolt rifle, Further, it has the detachable mags which rule out nearly all of the standard short-action bolt rifles from making the cut. Equip one with a forward mounted Leupold M8 scope and you've got a Scout in every respect.

I used to have one of these and (because I'm stupid), traded it off. One of these days I'll get another and hang onto it.
 
I have never used a LER scope on a rifle. So, other than letting you load quicker, why is a LER scope considered best on a scout rifle?
 
GP Rifles

I would have to agree with Mr. Eatman on this subject
To me, "general purpose" doesn't really include a battle rifle, since the probabilities are so doggoned low that a need would never arise.
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Sure I LOVE military style rifles but they just don't do much more than get some dust knocked off 'em at the range and at some IDPA shoots. The state that I hunt in: PA doesn't allow the use of semiautos for hunting. My general purpose rifles that I have can cover the entire range of the hunting I need to do. I have a Ruger M77 in .308 with a Leupold Vari-XIII 3.5-10x40mm which has served me very well. Its fairly light and it will hit hard at normal ranges. The glass on it is really clear at all times of day too. As for my other GP selection I have a Marlin 336 in 30-30 that I'm going to "scout-ify" this winter. I'm going to throw a Ashley Outdoors apeture set and their forward mounted scout mount. Then I'm going to top it off with a Leupold IER scout scope. I have a feeling that this rifle will see more use than any other rifle I've ever owned when I get done with it. Sure the old 336 won't reach out past 250 yards very well but when all else fails...just get closer!

Dan
 
A LER scope is one of those things you actually have to try out to appreciate. There's just a whole grab-bag of advantages to this system that you can't appreciate until you try it. I'll try and list some of the things that I've noticed - this from a hunters perspective but all of it holds true (I suppose) under combat conditions as well.

In REAL shooting you simply don't need a 5 or 10 power scope to hit something out to 300 yards or so. If you want to drive tiny groups into paper from a bench at the range, get a 3x9 or a 4x12 or what have you.

If you want to ring a six inch gong (or punch a deer through the ribs) from 300 yards offhand under field conditions (and to do so quickly), then use a fixed 2 1/2 power Leupold M8 (or similar LER from some other company).

Variable scopes of the standard 3x9 variety essentially leave you blind at close range. When you jump that deer at your feet and he goes bounding off through the trees, good luck in even finding him in that narrow field of view, and if you do he'll just be a blur because of the magnification.

The LER scope on the other hand, acts almost like a red-dot scope but without any batteries to go dead or fail because of weather. It's mounted out on the barrel so you can see around it (You can point like a shotgun) and the low magnification and wide field of view allows you to focus up close.

Seeing AROUND the scope is invaluable. Are two deer out there? Is the one you're tracking moving so that the tree ten feet way is about to block your shot? You'll never know with a standard scope.

Fixed power scopes of any description are more rugged. Period.

I know that six or ten people are going to jump in and say that you NEED a 9 or 10 power scope and it gives you all kinds of advantages, etc, etc, etc.
The only way to convince someone otherwise is to go to a range and try it. Don't sit at the bench though, and don't try to punch tiny groups. Simply put a gong out at several hundred yards and standing on your hind legs facing away from the target with your rifle at port arms, turn, bring the rifle up and shoot it - duplicate field conditions.
I think what you'll find is that with the Scout Scope you'll not only hit more consistently, but you'll do it much faster.
 
I have long advised the 30-30 for those seeking a GP rifle. One of the plus points is that it is NOT a black rifle and not likely in this era of lessening freedom to alarm folks as much as a black gun. The ammo is available anywhere and more so the more rural you go. SOME of them are very accurate although the several new ones I purchased in the last two years were NOT. Many of the older ones seem to be capable of MOA according to the shooting that is usually done by the one-gun rural folks who own them.

I, personally, have decided on my Daewoo K-1 with wire stock as it is MY general purpose rifle. I've decided I like the .223 as well as the .308 for MY purposes. I do like my M1 carbine too. If ammo weight was not a problem nor cost, I'd opt for my Mossberg 12 gauge as the all purpose rifle -- because there are not likely any situations where I'll need to go beyond it's 170 yard range of acceptable accuracy. Since ammo weight and cost is a factor, I've gone to the Daewoo. I've owned most all of the rest and shot all the rest that are available since I've worked in a gun shop off and on for the last 30 years in addition to my other work. I have loved the several H&Ks I've owned but of all of them I love my Daewoo best.
 
the probabilities are so doggoned low that a need would never arise.
Click to expand...


I hope you are right, Art. I really do. But I see the probability as a certainty, the only variable is the question of 'when'.

Maybe I've read too much of history and current events.
 
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