J-frame: Enough?

Is a S&W .38 Special Snub Nose enough for concealed carry?

  • Yes

    Votes: 131 91.0%
  • No

    Votes: 13 9.0%

  • Total voters
    144
  • Poll closed .
It's enough even if it's not ideal.

The first rule of carry is to have a gun. If that means a snubby or a .380 in the pocket, then you're ahead of 95+ percent of the population. Statistically, the average is 2 to 3 shots in a "gunfight." Obviously, there are occasions where more might be needed but we all compromise to some degree. Otherwise, we would be walking down the street looking like Deadpool on the way to a fight: https://the-artifice.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/06/deadpool-pouches.jpg
 
Yes, I feel it's plenty for my self-defense.

Normally, I carry a Glock 26 when I'm not working. But, in the summer when wearing hot weather attire (shorts, tank tops, etc), I'll pocket carry a S&W 642 with one or two speed strip pouches (each one holds 2 speed strips) on my belt.

I'm not going to be engaging anyone at 25-50 yards, but 25 yards on in and I'm game! Statistics show that most shootings take place at 21' (7 yards), so the +P ammo will do it's job, provided I do mine too.
 
I went from a 642 to a G26 a few years back for the extra capacity. My thinking was that if more than one good hit was required for a stop and I had any misses, the ammo supply could get tight. I know this is the revolver forum, and people who carry a 642 or something similar are better armed than most of the population, but I think a few more rounds is wiser.
 
"Enough?" begs the question: " For what?"

In this context, the "for what" is the threat against your person serious enough to warrant preparing to use a firearm in self-defense. Intuitively, I believe that for most of us most of the time, that threat consists of a confrontation by one or at most two individuals, who are confronting because they believe their target to be naive, unarmed, untrained and easily frightened into submission. For that scenario, simply presenting a firearm is likely to terrify the confronters into a rapid departure.

Now, posit a different threat and I might have a different response.

I will add that a J-Frame S&W is a specialst's weapon. It is not impossible to draw one and fire one or two well placed shots. But not without a lot of practice.
 
but I think a few more rounds is wiser.

I feel the same way. When you add the double-tap school of thought to the scenario, there goes 40% of your ammo on ONE bad guy. What if he's popular and has some bad guy buds with him? And revolvers are not the fastest things to reload. I'm trying a KT P11 when I can hide it, 12+1 so I don't carry an extra mag on my person, but I do keep loaded mags in the vehicles jic.
 
This is an old debate for the gun world.

If you carry just a J frame, you accept that you have what is probably a one opponent gun - maybe two.

The gun itself is effective but you must practice with it, if you want to have confidence in it. Of course, the untrained close up do carry the day. The choice is yours.

If you
We have a saying: We don’t train for the average, we train for the anomaly
as Marty Hayes puts it, then a J may not be enough for a more intensive fight.

The problem with these discussions is that someone will say:

1. If you can't do the job with the five, you blah, blah - insults.

2. If you carry more ammo, higher cap gun, you are a commando nutso.

Personally, I train and practice with Js and higher cap guns. If I can I prefer more from my experience. If I just go J - I accept the limitations as acceptable risk and if it doesn't work out - too bad for me.
 
J-frame is adequate BUT I have the exception.
was subjected to an assault / intimidation with a vehicle.
late model 1980' Lincoln town car, that decide to to the "hood ornament" on me as I traversed across a parking lot. After keeping track of it and noticing the distance decreasing, I was getting ready to engage, when I turned to my right to break-off and the car did the same. As the car passed me, the driver window was down.
Ever since I carry of 4" revolver or minimum of 9mm semi.
I have modified my cpl-ing procedure, by having a J-frame in the pocket and a 4"revovler in a fanny pak in the passenger compartment.
 
I will add that a J-Frame S&W is a specialst's weapon. It is not impossible to draw one and fire one or two well placed shots. But not without a lot of practice.

That's one of the reasons I quit carrying the J-frame... I couldn't draw and fire it with any reasonable amount of accuracy. Knowing what I know now, I probably could have done better with some different grips, but I wanted something more than 5 shots of .38, anyway.
 
How many of you think that setup would be enough for realistic self defense, or should I get a bigger gun with more capacity or a different caliber?

Without knowing the level of your skills I can't answer that. Maybe you would be better of having a fifteen round capacity. maybe you can carry a five shot revolver and two speed loaders. Unless you learn how to fire double action and keep the rounds at thirty feet or so into a six inch or so center, and learn to handle it proficiently, you need to give the plan up and carry something with higher capacity and a magazine.

There is nothing inherently wrong with carrying a snub nosed double action revolver or a compact semiauto. Your skills will be what defines your success in most cases, not the bore size or bullet. it doesn't matter how hard you miss someone, or how big the hole in the wall behind him is.
 
This sort of question is more of a risk assessment question than a pure equipment question.

If I were going to return to active duty and go out on patrol or handle a daily caseload in some detective type of position?

Then no, a 5-shot short-barreled snub revolver wouldn't be my choice as a primary duty weapon. (I would, however, be fine going back to carrying a 6-shot revolver of 2 1/2", 3" or 4" barrel length, but that's another subject. ;) )

Since I'm retired, and I no longer concern myself with the possibility of invoking peace officer authority off-duty and taking an enforcement action by intervening in an active, on-view criminal activity?

Then yes, in many situations that involve my normal retirement activities I'm willing to rely upon one of my several 5-shot snubs as a retirement CCW choice, in case I find myself having to protect myself (or my wife or family) from 1 or 2 attackers within reasonably close range.

Can I predict what risks might present themselves on any given day or night, and which combination of handgun, caliber and ammunition capacity might ultimately be needed?

Of course not. I never had a crystal ball for the 34 years I carried one or another badge (I did have a Magic 8-Ball, given to me by a close command staff friend, but it never seemed to give me the right answers for the right questions :) ).

I did, however, develop a sense of awareness and learning to assess and balance risks that let me walk the line between oblivious and paranoid.

As was already mentioned, though, being able to accurately, controllably and effectively shoot a diminutive DA/DAO snub revolver under stress may be a skillset that isn't as easily gained as some folks might wish.

Yes, it's relatively easy to slip a pocket-holstered J-frame into a pocket ... but ... the very attributes that make the snubs so ubiquitous and popular as CCW/off-duty choices for a lot of folks also tends to make them harder to shoot well compared to other, larger revolvers ... or even smallish pistols chambered in 9 or .380.

I'd think that each person would have to realistically ask him/herself if they were carrying that little snub more as a talisman or good-luck charm, or as a dedicated weapon they're confident they can use well under stress.

Me? I come from the generation of cops who carried revolvers on-duty, at least for several years before the hi-cap pistols finally nudged revolvers into their niche in police history. I liked revolvers and a Colt Commander for my off-duty needs, but eventually realized that environments presenting less looming threats made a J-frame a handy thing to have as an option. Initially that meant attending meetings, some LE training classes & seminars, court appearances, etc.. Eventually, as my skill using 5-shot revolver grew, it came to mean having one or more of them as an off-duty option.

Now, as a revolver aficionado and a LE firearms instructor of an earlier time, I also had the opportunity and motivation to devote time to developing, honing and maintaining my revolver skills, and especially my snub revolver skills (which tend to be harder to shoot).

Everyone has to ask themselves if they have the justified confidence (and experience) necessary to safely handle and shoot any particular handgun safely and well enough to rely upon it in an unexpected dynamic, chaotic and rapidly evolving deadly force situation.

The venerable 5-shot snub is just another option to be found among the growing wealth and breadth (and clutter) of handguns available to be carried as dedicated defensive weapons nowadays.

Suit yourself, but hopefully for the right reasons. Make your own informed decision (which might require some additional training, knowledge and insight, as well as a frank assessment of your own abilities).

Also remember that even if you're carrying the "right" gun, and have all the "right" training and experience, and may do everything "right" if something bad ever comes your way, that's still no guarantee that everything will work out. Trying to manage risk and limit exposure to unnecessary risk doesn't eliminate risk. ;)

I've met my fair share of people who could carry a pistol that holds 17+ rounds of the latest and greatest JHP ammunition, and maybe 50-150 rounds of extra ammunition on their person in assorted extended capacity magazines ... and they were still likely going to find themselves less prepared than they probably wished to think they were.
 
Wow, Fastbolt has an outstanding post.

FWIW, I am a civilian who has owned 38 snubs since the late 1908's and has shot thousands of rounds through them.

I am totally comfortable carrying one with the thought of one or two muggers or car-jackers in mind. In the small town I live in, that is very realistic.

On the rare occasions when I go to visit certain relatives in a big-city very bad neighborhood, I carry something more "tactical".
 
How can a 5-shot J-Frame be a "Specialist's weapon"??? I mean, isn't it the same type of gun that is continually recommended for inexperienced girlfriends, wives, sisters, & mothers???! ;)
 
Model12Win asked:
"How many of you think that setup would be enough for realistic self defense,..."

"Enough"? Yes. Unless you are expecting to be involved in a set-piece battle every time you go out to check your mailbox, a S&W J frame 38 is enough to protect yourself from the vast majority of threats you could reasonably expect to encounter.

Can we imagine a situation where it is not? Like a drug cartel hit-team mistakes you for their target and you suddenly find yourself facing numerous armed individuals with numerous weapons?

Sure.

How likely is it to happen?

Well, you're more likely to win the lottery or get stuck by lightning.

The fact of the matter is that most concealed carry handguns and the people who carry them will never be involved in a situation where the gun needs to be drawn, much less fired. Given that reality, five rounds in a J frame 38 is enough to give you the chance to make it through (or run away from) a self-defense encounter.
 
Well, you're more likely to win the lottery or get stuck by lightning.

One antigun argument against carrying a gun or having guns is school is that such incidents are as rare as being hit by lightning. Thus, given the number of bad uses of firearms, they should be banned as carry uses such as in rampages are as rare as being hit by lightning.

This argument is a wonderful one for why higher capacity guns and mags should be banned. Their usage in self-defense is as rare as being hit by lightning.

Thanks for the 5 is enough crowd who do not say that it is a risk management situation as compared to stating that you are silly to carry more for playing into the hands of antigunners. I've said this before.

BTW, I have been hit by lightning. I had friend who survived a DC-8 crash that came down in a forest when it ran out of gas. Many killed but not him and his wife and kid.

We were in a class and the instructor said - it is as rare as being hit by lightning or being in a jet plane crash. We both raised our hands.

The answer to the question is again blazingly clear. It is risk management, you probably won't ever fire a shot, you probably won't ever be in an intensive gun fight that takes many rounds. Thus, a J is acceptable on that risk criterion for you.

However, if you pompously chortle that those who carry more are in someway ridiculous, you are a poster child for gun type bans.

Are there levels of carry that might seem silly, four mags, 3 Bugs and wear a vest - perhaps.

But if you mock a reasonable EDC, such as a semi with higher capacity and an extra mag or two, you are playing right into the hands of Nancy, Hogg, Chuck, Cuomo, Bloomberg, etc. Go for it if you wish.
 
I love my 642! I have always carried it IWB, however just recently discovered a pocket holster that I like. So now I carry it in my front pocket. I usually carry a Shield or Mod 2 as my primary carry, but now with the front pocket carry, I will have 2 guns on my person.

Joe
 
I would like to ask for the J is enough crowd (as compared to I understand the risk criterion argument), how much you practice with the J for basic technique and in dynamic situations. Here's a nice take on the issues from Tom Givens.

http://rangemaster.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/2018-09_RFTS-Newsletter.pdf

I took Claude's class. I also shoot the J's in IDPA or close range matches. I've managed to make the mandatory one shot only head shots with the gun at reasonable distance. Not to be too much of a jerk but in one match we had a steel plate at about 15 yards and I hit it in one shot. The squad gave me a round of applause. Now could I do it again?

In any case, as Tom and Claude point out, if you carry a J and may have to use it, you need to master it.

Of course, most DGU's are one where you wave the gun and the BG flees. As Marty Hayes says, do you come up to speed for when that doesn't happen?
 
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